1 2 3 4 5 6 Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee 7 Regional Forum 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Before: Herb Norwegian - Chairperson 15 Adrian Boyd - Board Member 16 Petr Cizek - Board Member 17 Ron Antoine - Board Member 18 Tim Lennie - Board Member 19 20 21 22 Held at: Hay River Reserve 23 Chief Lamalice Complex 24 February 9th, 2006 25

1 APPEARANCES 2 Heidi Wiebe )Board Staff 3 Paul Wilson ) 4 Monika Templin ) 5 Priscilla Canadien ) 6 Sophie Bonnetrouge ) 7 8 Chief Roy Fabian )Katlodeeche First Nation 9 Pat Martel ) 10 11 Chief Lloyd Chicot )Ka'a'gee Tu First Nation 12 Gabe Chicot ) 13 Sara Chicot ) 14 George Simba ) 15 16 Theresa Elleze )Deh Gah Got'ie Dene Council 17 Phillip Elleze ) 18 Murina Sabourin ) 19 20 Chief Dennis Deneron )Sambaa K'e Dene Band 21 Edward Jumbo ) 22 Rebecca Jumbo ) 23 Ruby Jumbo ) 24 25

1 APPEARANCES (con't) 2 Chief Harry Deneron )Acho Dene Koe Band 3 Stanley Bertrand ) 4 Phillip Battle ) 5 6 Marie Lafferty )Fort Simpson Metis Local 52 7 Barb Villeneuve ) 8 Jonas Lafferty ) 9 Lisa Lafferty ) 10 Kelly Pennycook ) 11 12 Chief Stanley Sanguez )Jean Marie River First Nation 13 Margaret Ireland ) 14 Tyrone Sanguez ) 15 Ernest Hardisty ) 16 17 Richard Lafferty )Fort Providence Metis Local 57 18 Gilbert Bouvier ) 19 Georgette Bouvier ) 20 21 Chief Eric Betsaka )Nahanni Butte Dene Band 22 Jonas Marcellais 23 Elsie Marcellais 24 25

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Chief Harry Deneron ) Acho Dene Koe First Nation 3 Phillip Battle 4 5 Chief Keyna Norwegian ) Liidle Kue First Nation 6 Ernest Michael ) 7 Robert Hardisty ) 8 Jonas Antoine ) 9 10 Chief Karen Thomas Felker ) West Point First Nation 11 Sonya Cayen ) 12 Jim Thomas ) 13 William Michele ) 14 15 Chief Gabe Hardisty ) Pehdzeh Ki First Nation 16 Fred William ) 17 Michael Neyelle ) 18 19 David Livingstone ) DIAND 20 Greg Yeoman ) 21 Arthur Boutilier ) 22 Gary Bohnet ) 23 Gary Potts ) 24 Tony Riley ) 25 Michael Walsh )

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Glen Stephens ) DIAND cont'd 4 Philip Maracle ) 5 Mark Prystupa ) 6 7 Tom Beaulieu ) GNWT 8 Carolyn Laude ) 9 Jane McMullen ) 10 Jack Bird ) 11 Greg Brady ) 12 Ian Butters ) 13 Steve Iveson ) 14 Tom Lakusta ) 15 16 Terry Forkheim ) Anadarko 17 Andrew Loosley 18 19 Erica Janes ) CPAWS 20 Jennifer Morin ) 21 22 Ross Papirnick ) Imperial Oil 23 24 Mike Peters ) Canadian Association of 25 Petroleum Producers

1 Appearances (cont'd) 2 3 Dan O'Rourke ) Canadian Zinc 4 5 William Carpenter ) World Wildlife Fund 6 Angus Lennie ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 Opening comments 8 4 5 Presentation by CAPP 9 6 Question Period 20 7 8 Presentation by Anadarko 46 9 Question Period 55 10 11 Presentation by Canadian Zinc 78 12 Question Period 98 13 14 Presentation by CPAWS 147 15 Comments by Mr. Dennis Bevington 161 16 Presentation by World Wildlife Fund 167 17 18 Public Comments 182 19 20 Closing comments 234 21 22 23 Certificate of Transcript 254 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:41 a.m. 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Good morning. 4 Good morning, good morning. If we can begin. We'd like 5 to call upon Celine Bugghins to the microphone. She will 6 be doing the Opening Prayer for us. Can we all rise, 7 please. 8 9 (OPENING PRAYER) 10 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. And, again, for 12 some brief announcements, we have flip charts, a flip 13 chart that's up against the wall here. It says 14 "Discussion Topics," so if there are some items that you 15 want raised, at least noted, this is a good time, as you 16 are helping yourself to some coffee, to write down some 17 points and this will then probably go into the Record. 18 So again this morning, where we left off 19 yesterday, we were into Presentations from Governments 20 and of course Communities. What we also wanted to do was 21 to hear from the Elders, but we weren't able to get them 22 together. So I understand that they are able to do that 23 this morning. 24 But yesterday afternoon we heard from the 25 Government of the Northwest Territories. We also heard

1 from Canada. So what we wanted to do this morning is get 2 into the Business Sector Presentations, and those are the 3 petroleum producers, the Canadian Association of 4 Petroleum Producers, Anadarko, Canadian Zinc, the NGO 5 Presentation, Canadian Parks and Wilderness and our World 6 Wildlife Fund, and of course then followed by some public 7 comments. 8 That's the Agenda items that we did not 9 finish off yesterday, so if we could compress that and 10 try to get that done this morning, it would be great, and 11 then we can move on to our Thursday morning agenda. 12 So again, what I'd like to do is to call 13 up the Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, if 14 they are ready to make their Presentation to microphone 15 number 17. Followed by that would be Anadarko, Canadian 16 Zinc, and so on. 17 So, again, if you can introduce yourselves 18 and then get into the presentation. 19 20 PRESENTATION BY CAPP: 21 MR. MIKE PETERS: Good morning everyone. 22 My name is Mike Peters. I'm from the Canadian 23 Association of Petroleum Producers, or CAPP, and I'm here 24 to offer some comments from the oil and gas industry's 25 perspective on the -- on the Draft Plan.

1 Before I get into that, I'd like to thank 2 the K'atlodeeche, the First Nation, Chief Fabian, Grand 3 Chief Norwegian, and all the Chiefs assembled here, for 4 the opportunity to speak before you today. 5 I'd also like to thank the committee for 6 the opportunity to provide comments. CAPP has had three 7 (3) submissions in the last year, to the various drafts 8 of the Plan, and we certainly appreciate that opportunity 9 to provide input and the time that the Committee has put 10 in to responding to our concerns and taking them into 11 consideration. And so, we thank you. 12 CAPP is an industry association, we have a 13 hundred and fifty (150) members who explore and produce 14 oil and natural gas all throughout Canada, and those 15 members would include many, if not most, of the companies 16 that are active up here in the North. 17 I threw this slide in to demonstrate the 18 potential for, this is natural gas figures. Up here in 19 the North, as you can see from the -- the big yellow 20 circle up at the top, there's very little natural gas 21 that has been produced, there's quite a bit remaining. 22 Now, obviously, all of that is not in the 23 Dehcho, but there is a lot of opportunity for oil and gas 24 up in the North, and certainly our companies are -- are 25 well aware of that.

1 With regards to the Land Use Plan, from an 2 industry perspective, a Land Use Plan can be very 3 positive, provides direction and focus for industry, in 4 terms of where our activities are allowed. And that's a 5 -- a great thing in terms of providing certainty, which 6 is a key consideration for industry when you're talking 7 about making a multi-million-dollar investment. 8 Along the same lines of certainty, I'd 9 like to acknowledge that in the current Draft of the 10 Plan, the existing rights and dispositions have been 11 acknowledged and will be allowed to continue, and I think 12 that's a -- a positive thing, and again an area where 13 we've had a lot of back and forth with the Committee, and 14 I'd like to -- to thank them for including those terms in 15 the Plan. 16 However, on the whole, industry is 17 concerned that the Plan as it's drafted, will not allow 18 for the full cycle of activities and perhaps cycle is not 19 the right word, their progression might be a better word, 20 the progression from exploration through to commercial 21 production. 22 And we have those concerns because we see 23 that several parts of the plans are quite constraining in 24 terms of access to land, and some operational constraints 25 in those areas where we are allowed to operate, and I

1 will get into those in a second. 2 And so our question is: Will the Dehcho 3 Land Use Plan encourage and support the expected level of 4 economic benefits associated with oil and gas activity? 5 With regards to access to land, it's 6 important to realize that the Dehcho Region is still 7 being explored, and in that exploratory phase, there is a 8 lot of unknowns, the location of resources is not known. 9 And companies operating up here are taking 10 on a risk when they come up here to operate. And one of 11 the ways that companies look to offset that risk is by 12 being able to access quite a -- quite a bit of land, so 13 that there is the freedom to explore and -- and find the 14 resources, wherever they may be. 15 Currently, oil and gas activity is 16 restricted from 59 percent of the Dehcho Region, and many 17 of those zones where it is permitted are kind of small 18 islands of development, and that is a concern when you 19 look at the -- the total area where you will be allowed 20 to explore. 21 And also there's concerns that those 22 areas are kind of running up against conservation zones 23 and whatnot. 24 And certainly, you need to be able to 25 access your lease and also be able to -- anything that

1 you do discover there, there needs to be that freedom to 2 kind of get it out, get it to market and commercial your 3 discovery. 4 Another comment we have on the Plan is 5 that it's quite broad in its scope and it addresses many 6 issues that aren't traditionally addressed in the Land 7 Use Planning exercise. And CAPP is suggesting that the 8 Plan could be focussed on land-use activities and the 9 values being protected, and that would certainly for, 10 from an operating perspective, make the process up here 11 much clearer. 12 And again, industry is really looking for 13 that regulatory clarity and efficiency in industries 14 where we operate and certainly our concern is that many 15 of those issues included in the Land Use Plan make -- 16 make the environment up here a little bit more complex 17 and a little bit more uncertain for companies operating 18 in the area. 19 For the rest of my Presentation, I'm going 20 to move on to the cumulative-effects component of the 21 Plan. And this is an area where we're concerned that the 22 cumulative effects thresholds proposed could limit 23 industry activity in those areas where it is allowed. So 24 again, it's a potential constraint on oil and gas 25 activity.

1 With regards to the science of cumulative 2 effects, I -- I won't say much, only that it's CAPP's 3 position that this science and research is still ongoing 4 and there's not a definitive body of work. 5 And as such, we have questions as to 6 whether the cumulative-effects thresholds are appropriate 7 for the region, and questions such as: How is 8 reclamation being addressed? Are the disturbances 9 characterized accurately? 10 And in our Submissions we've raised 11 questions around human use and access issues and what 12 effect they have on disturbances. 13 Why have some of the thresholds been 14 chosen? And one of the reasons why we're asking these 15 questions is that the analysis done in the Plan concludes 16 that some of the thresholds are already being surpassed 17 in areas where development is occurring. 18 However, certainly from an-oil-and-gas- 19 industry perspective, those developments are not yet 20 fully commercialized, they're still in development. And 21 if they're already surpassing the thresholds, there's 22 very little opportunity for them to continue to progress 23 and become commercial operations. 24 Another area of concern with the 25 cumulative effects is that the thresholds are such that

1 they will force companies to choose between safe 2 operating practises and reducing our environmental 3 footprint, and that's a difficult position to put 4 companies in. 5 When you're looking at, and I'll focus 6 here on the linear corridor definition, when you're 7 working in an environment that's less than 1.5 metres 8 wide, there is the potential that it increases the time 9 to get to an injured worker or remove him, if you need 10 to. 11 And I'm just going to try and turn around 12 so, let me know if I start missing the microphone here. 13 The picture that we have up there is, it's 14 four (4) people holding a stretcher between them, and you 15 can -- you can see that those people with the stretcher 16 between them, are actually wider than 1.5 metres; they're 17 1.8 metres. 18 So you can see that in this -- in the case 19 that someone were trying to exit a worker that would -- a 20 1.5 metre corridor would certainly kind of constrain 21 their activities. 22 Sorry, did everyone catch that as I was 23 turning around? Okay. 24 There's also another seismic option to 25 keep your footprint under 1.5 metres wide is heli-

1 portable seismic, and the use of heli-portable seismic 2 can be dangerous in the winter, due to limited daylight 3 hours, so, and certainly that seismic work is usually 4 done in the winter. So that would be another concern 5 there. 6 The reason that we've kind of highlighted 7 this definition is because when we go to a seismic line, 8 wider than 1.5 metres wide, it starts to impact on the 9 cumulative effects density threshold, or sorry, the 10 linear density threshold. 11 And from the work that we've had done, 12 which I'm going to walk you through in a second, we feel 13 that once you're working with that threshold, it really 14 limits your ability for seismic acquisition, and for 15 further development. 16 So what I'm going to walk you through here 17 is some work that CAPP had done where we took kind of an 18 area of land, with no disturbance on it, and we tried to 19 overlay kind of a -- a typical development scenario. 20 Now this is not any development that has 21 occurred up here, and it is a -- a bit of a generic 22 scenario, and each development will occur in its own way, 23 but please, this is kind of just a fairly typical 24 example. 25 So the red square that you can see up on

1 the screen is a corridor oil and gas grid and that's the 2 area that Plan identifies as being the area over which 3 the linear density threshold will be calculated. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. MIKE PETERS: This will be great. 8 Thank you. So what we've got here, this is the first 9 stage, is 2D seismic, and that's what these diagonal 10 lines are here, and that's a grid, they're fairly -- 11 fairly wide apart. 12 And if that seismic goes well, the next 13 stage is to drill an exploration well. And so in this 14 scenario we've assumed three (3) exploration wells right 15 there, two (2) of them within the corridor oil and gas 16 grid. 17 Now to get to those wells, you need to 18 build a little bit of supporting infrastructure. So 19 you've got roads out to your well, and then a road out to 20 water, you can see there, that would depend on your 21 regulatory approval. 22 But, now in this situation, so having done 23 some exploration, drilled some exploratory wells, you can 24 see right here that we're just over one 1 kilometre per 25 kilometre-squared. So we're well below the linear

1 density threshold of 1.8 kilometres per kilometre- 2 squared. 3 So at this stage of development, there's 4 really no concern with the thresholds. The problem comes 5 at the next stage of development, which is typically a 3D 6 seismic. 7 A 3D seismic is a much tighter grid than 8 2D seismic, and that's the grid that we've overlaid here, 9 and that grid in this situation is about 300 metres by 10 400 metres. 11 And 3D seismic is necessary to get a 12 better idea of what is underneath the ground, and a good 13 idea of where to drill next. And so what we found when 14 we were overlaying the 3D seismic grid, was that no more 15 than 20 percent of the corridor oil and gas grid could be 16 covered before you ran over the linear density threshold. 17 You can see there we're just over 1.8 kilometres per 18 kilometre-squared. 19 Now, 20 percent of a corridor oil and gas 20 grid is between roughly 10 to 12 square kilometres. And 21 I'll switch back over, sorry. Maybe I'll stay on the 22 hand held mike then. 23 Past 3D seismic programs in the Dehcho 24 have ranged between 40 square kilometres, all the way up 25 to 200 square kilometres. So certainly, being limited to

1 an area of 10 to 12 square kilometres is -- is, well it's 2 quite a bit smaller and it -- it would be quite limiting. 3 There is a risk that, excuse me, that if 4 companies were willing to conduct such a small 3D seismic 5 program, they wouldn't be able to find what they're 6 looking for. There is also a risk that, well not a risk, 7 but if they did find what they were looking for, they're 8 already at the threshold and there's no capability to 9 drill any extra wells, add any supporting infrastructure, 10 such as another road or a pipeline to get their products 11 to market. 12 And so there's really no opportunity for 13 them to exploit anything they would have discovered, and 14 certainly that's a very real concern for the oil and gas 15 industry. 16 So, we are concerned that the current 17 Draft could limit the level of oil and gas activity. We 18 believe that that little scenario that I walked you 19 through, demonstrates that it's very difficult to reach 20 commercial operations under the thresholds proposed, and 21 there's no incentive to develop if commercial operations 22 can't be achieved, and as such, there could be a loss of 23 development activity and economic benefits associated 24 with that activity. 25 So, I will leave my presentation there.

1 Again, thank you for the opportunity to present before 2 you today. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks for your 4 presentation. Again, the Floor is open for questions. I 5 see Petr Cizek. Petr. 6 7 QUESTION PERIOD: 8 MR. PETR CIZEK: Thanks. Your scenario 9 there was very illuminating. 10 It all assumes that all future 3D seismic 11 would require conventional seismic lines exceeding 1.5 12 metres. Now, the precedent has been set throughout 13 Alberta and even in -- in parts of the Northwest 14 Territories, where we can do seismic with a -- a smaller 15 footprint, the technology is there. 16 Alberta has clearly defined what minimal 17 impact seismic is in terms of creating small meandering 18 lines through the bush. We're not suggesting that all 19 seismic needs to be less than 1.5 metres wide, but 20 definitely the possibility of including some of those 3D 21 seismic lines as -- as minimal impact lines. 22 And the precedent has been already set in 23 Liard in 2001, when I believe it was; Anadarko did a 24 Seismic Program where they were alternating seismic 25 lines, I think every fourth or fifth seismic line was a

1 conventional 3 to 5 metre wide line and the -- the lines 2 in-between were all 1.5 metres wide. 3 And apparently, from those who've -- 4 who've surveyed those lines following the operation, you 5 -- you cannot detect the 1.5 metre lines. The bush has 6 grown back in, it was so thick, it was done deep in the 7 Valley. 8 What I suggest to you is, is that -- is 9 that the technology is out there to reduce your foot 10 print and to consider developing scenarios where you 11 would not exceed the thresholds. 12 And I've modelled the impacts of oil and 13 gas development in the Fort Liard area as well as 14 throughout the Mackenzie Valley, and the single thing 15 that pushes oil and gas development over any thresholds 16 that we know about, especially those for Woodland 17 Caribou, is seismic. 18 We have the technology to do things 19 differently and we're not suggesting that all seismic be 20 minimal-impact seismic but that enough of it be reduced 21 to keep things below a safe level if we want to keep -- 22 certainly keep the Woodland Caribou herds alive in the 23 Dehcho. 24 MR. MIKE PETERS: Thank you. Yes, there 25 certainly are alternatives with seismic. My demo, or not

1 my demonstration, but the scenario there was really to 2 illustrate how that would work with any seismic over 1.5 3 metres wide. 4 I'm not as familiar myself with what those 5 options might be. I think another thing to consider is 6 also working under those thresholds does remove some 7 options, and I think that oil and gas companies, they do 8 have flexibility. 9 You mentioned the successful Anadarko 10 Program, they were able to find a way, and maybe Terry 11 and Andrew might want to speak to that. But they were 12 able to find a way but essentially, you'd be -- just be 13 removing some options from oil and gas companies, and I 14 just wanted to illustrate that that was a potential 15 impact. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Mike. 17 Roy. Chief Roy Fabian, K'atlodeeche. Is there any other 18 speakers? Please raise your hand so we can...Mr. 19 Cardinal. 20 Okay, Roy...? 21 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Good morning. I guess 22 there's some questions that I got in my mind. But just a 23 couple of comments, especially you know, because, you 24 know like, cumulative effects are such a big topic today. 25 And for me, I, you know, I got an Elder sitting here and

1 in -- in Dene Language, cumulative effects is referred to 2 as Gojhachie (phonetic) and basically what you leave 3 behind. 4 And, you know, and the Elder explains to 5 me and for me, I -- I don't know because I still go out 6 and occasionally go hunting and stuff like that, and you 7 see what cumulative effects Dene People left behind 8 there. 9 You know, and after having lived here for, 10 you know, time in memorial, the cumulative effects are 11 very minimal. And even in the last hundred years after, 12 you know, that the Dene People got introduced to, you 13 know, building cabins and -- and stuff like that, there's 14 one place where we went hunting and we make -- we made 15 our base camp in one place and -- and were there and an 16 Elder was with us and he began to, you know, show us 17 where he -- this place had about five (5) cabins in that 18 -- in that area and you would never have known if you, 19 you know, if the Elder didn't know. 20 And there, that's the kind of cumulative 21 effects that the Dene People have been working with for, 22 you know, time in memorial. And the industry you know, 23 is coming along and -- and now no matter how wide it is, 24 even if it's a metre for 3 feet wide or whatever, there 25 is still an effect.

1 Like, if you take a -- if you go, you 2 know, like these cutlines were put in towards Pine Point 3 back in the '60s, the '50s and the '60s, they -- they did 4 seismic work out there and they cut a whole bunch of 5 lines. 6 And those things are still there and 7 especially in that kind of environment where there's lot 8 of, you know, rocks and stuff like that, things don't 9 grow back as quickly, and you can still see, you know, 10 all the grids and -- and everything. You fly over it and 11 you're -- you'd be surprised at, you know, how visible 12 all that work is. 13 And so for us, when you talk about, you 14 know, cumulative effects, you know, we're comparing to 15 what we left behind and -- and that's when -- where we 16 run into -- where we run into a problem. 17 Your definition of cumulative effects is a 18 lot different than ours. And -- and you're talking about 19 thresholds and, yeah, you know like, you know, we might 20 be setting, you know, setting thresholds pretty high and 21 might be, you know, it makes the industry not want to 22 come into the Territory. 23 But for us, you know like, the Indians say 24 --like for example, you know, the pipeline is got twenty- 25 five (25) year life is what I hear. So after twenty-five

1 (25) years, you know, all the industry will be gone and 2 the gas is gone and everybody is disappeared. 3 But us Dene People, actually we still 4 going to be here and that -- that kind of cumulative 5 effects there in that case is going to be far reaching, 6 it's not going to be just our generation, that's going to 7 carry on for generations into the future. 8 And for us, us Dene People, we have to 9 think far ahead, we can't just think about us today and 10 how good are things for us. You know, and that's the 11 problem I have with the industry. 12 You're here to make money for your -- for 13 your investors, as much money as they can in this 14 lifetime and you know, and, you know, it's proven that 15 some of that money will never get spent with these 16 people, yet you guys do everything you can to make as 17 much money for them as possible. And you -- and they 18 really don't care what effects they're having on mother 19 earth in the long-term basis. 20 You know, the cumulative effects, you 21 know, are going to be devastating to us, us Dene People. 22 The -- like, some of the things that, like, for me I 23 wanted to mention and, you know, Petr alluded to it is, 24 you know, like, I know for example we -- we're working 25 with an oil company and they're not big like Anadarko or

1 stuff like that, but yet they -- their forward thinking 2 is they're -- they want to do the exploration with 3 leaving as little bit of a footprint as possible. 4 And one of the things they're looking at 5 is, you know, this new technology where if all the 6 seismic is done by -- by helicopter. 7 You know, and -- and yeah, this is more 8 expensive, but you know what? For me, that's part of the 9 cost to industry. Like in order for you to -- to produce 10 gas, this is going to be the norm we want to set. If you 11 want to explore in our country, this is the norm, and 12 it's going to cost you money. 13 You know like, and the thing about it, 14 there's in Canada, like, I think Canada charges something 15 like, you know, over the years there's bills up to 16 5 percent of the total, you know, revenue goes back to 17 Canada, whereas in other parts of the world, in some 18 places the country owns the -- the oil companies. 19 And -- and yet, the industry sees Canada 20 as a, you know, as a freebie where we're just giving the 21 oil and gas away for their -- for, you know, and, you 22 know, it starts off at 1 percent, I believe. 23 You know, and that's to -- that's an 24 incentive to the industry to be able to go into -- into 25 Canada to start exploring. But they, you know, and --

1 and even with those kind of, you know, those kind of, you 2 know, incentives, Canada is literally giving, you know, 3 the industry, you know, the oil and gas and they don't 4 pay very much. 5 They still argue with us about, you know, 6 you know, the money they have to spend in order to do the 7 work here in the Northwest Territories. You know, and -- 8 and for me, like, you -- you know like, we want to set 9 certain standards here. 10 And you have the technology, you know 11 like, you know like, all the oil companies that are part 12 of CAPP, you know, you mention all the major, you know, 13 players in the Northwest Territories, well I bet you all 14 of them put their heads together and put their money 15 together, they can come up with something that can meet 16 our needs. 17 You know, but you're not willing to do 18 that. And for me, what I'm hearing here is, we're not 19 willing to pay, we're not willing to spend the money to 20 do what is right for the Northwest Territories and the 21 Dene People. 22 We want to make sure that you guys lower 23 your standards so we can destroy your land. And for me 24 I'm not willing, you know, I for one am not in support of 25 something like that.

1 The industry needs to start thinking about 2 how they're going to get together and deal with this 3 thing, rather than coming here and saying, do this, do 4 this, and do this, you should be saying: Okay, well we 5 came up with a plan that's going to meet your needs and, 6 you know, yeah, we're going to spend a few dollars and 7 maybe our, you know, shareholders are not going to make 8 us much money but we think this is saleable. 9 You know, rather than doing that you 10 criticize what we do, you come up with ideas that 11 doesn't, you know, doesn't work for us. We didn't put 12 this together thinking well, we were going make it easier 13 for you, we put this together: What's going to protect 14 the land? What are the standards we need? 15 And since we're sharing the land with you, 16 Well, here are the standards we expect you to meet. But 17 you're coming back rather than saying, yeah, we're 18 willing -- you know, you got more money than we do. 19 You know, I bet you, your research project 20 for whatever, you know, is probably more than my whole 21 core budget for my First Nation. 22 And yet you come to us and tell us: Well 23 this is going to cost too much. And, for me I just -- 24 I'll never agree with that, so, you know, maybe you need 25 to go back to your drawing board and start looking at,

1 you know, ways that you can do -- meet this thing here, 2 with -- with the standards that we're setting. What do 3 you need to do, and are you willing to pay the price? 4 And, you know, yeah, like I said, and you 5 might as much money for your investors but this is the 6 money you have to spend in order to come into our part of 7 the world. 8 And, you know like, and for me that -- I 9 can't see it being any other way. You know, and then you 10 mention these little items, like, for me I -- the -- the 11 white parts are items where we're going to give you, you 12 know, freedom to go in there, but if you take a look at 13 the purple parts of, you know, which is the, you know, 14 Special Management Zones there's -- there's quite a bit 15 of land there. 16 But you're focussing, you know, on 17 something where you're going to have absolute freedom, 18 you know, and -- and you're not going to have absolute 19 freedom. 20 You know, like, even the -- in the areas, 21 the white areas, you're not going to have absolute 22 freedom. And -- and that's something you need to expect. 23 I think the industry needs to -- to respect that. 24 And so, like for me to hear what you're 25 saying, you know, I find disturbing because, you know

1 like, I know what money you guys deal with. 2 Now I know how much money you guys spend, 3 you know like, and -- and I wonder how much money you 4 spend to develop this thing that's in your plan is -- you 5 know, what I'm hearing is your plan is no good to us so 6 you need to change it. But yet, how much money did you 7 spend on saying, Well let's see how we can meet their 8 needs? 9 You know, I -- I think there's -- you 10 know, that kind of a response would be a lot better than, 11 you know, listening to you saying, well we don't like 12 this, we don't like this and, you know like, you know 13 like, the chances of us making money is, you know, 14 reduced and stuff. 15 Yeah, you know like, we understand that. 16 But we also understand that you guys literally get the 17 oil and gas for nothing from Canada, you know, so, you 18 know, I think you need to consider those, you know, those 19 -- those things. Mahsi. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there. Thanks, 21 Roy. 22 Did you want to comment? Okay, Doug, 23 number 5. 24 Is there anyone else that wanted to speak? 25 Jonas Antoine...?

1 MR. DOUG CARDINAL: Thanks. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Doug. 3 MR. DOUG CARDINAL: Doug Cardinal from 4 Hay River here. I would like to comment and I'm just 5 commenting as a beneficiary and a Band Member at a local 6 community here. 7 I have been -- have read some of the 8 documents talk about seismic activity, talking about what 9 the proposed Plan is. I would just like to talk a bit 10 about land use planning and -- and give you an example of 11 some of the things I don't we've done as good as we 12 should have, and that's -- we talk about the geology and 13 land selections and withdrawals. 14 I think, you know, that could have been 15 better planned out with people that have the experience 16 and understanding of putting this together. 17 Myself, I'm a businessman and a 18 contractor, and have done 2D and 3D seismic. And I have 19 firsthand understanding of that right from planning the 20 job to plotting it, to, we do things different now where, 21 for instance, we have the machines on GPS's, all the 22 equipment we put out there, even our slashers today use 23 those to cut our lines. 24 We've done things different and -- and I 25 believe in technology is great, a firm believer that it

1 can make less imprints and have a less of an impact for 2 us. 3 But what I do find is people like myself 4 are not involved in the pre-planning of development going 5 forward for the best interests of all of us. I may be a 6 contractor, but I still, at heart, have the understanding 7 and like I spoke with my Chief before that, I still -- I 8 still know where I come from and -- and understand it, 9 although some people have misconceptions of it. 10 And when I pull in here today and we talk 11 about cumulative effects, we have the whole parking lot's 12 full of vehicles, I had a hard time to find a place to 13 park this morning. 14 And the people that are really hammering 15 this issue are the same ones that drove here the same way 16 as we do. You know, we've come a long ways in thirty 17 (30) years. I remember we used to -- I used to drive off 18 here with my uncle and take our dog team and go set nets. 19 We don't do that anymore. We take a 20 Skidoo and -- and we all have a place to pay with that. 21 But also, we need to create it so that we 22 can participate today going forward. We've had 23 aggressive changes in thirty (30) years, and I've seen it 24 myself; I was part of it growing up. 25 And, what I do see is, you know, there is

1 one time where we've had a good qual -- a good way of 2 life, that was destroyed through environmentalists today. 3 And what disturbs me more so, is I do have a part of that 4 industry and I say, I've always said it, that if we are 5 going to conduct business in the same way that we did 6 South of 60, then let's not do it, because we're not 7 ready. 8 And I played first-hand experience in that 9 industry for years. But what we need to do is have 10 people like myself, I see Harry here, and different 11 people around in this room that has worked in the 12 industry and understand it, and we really need to work 13 together for the best interests, and not work together 14 just to preserve continuous employment for one -- for one 15 agency. 16 And we, as Aboriginal People, have been 17 environmentalists on this land for a long, long time and 18 understand that better than anybody that sat in school 19 for four (4) years and got a piece of paper and says, 20 I'll come and tell you how to do this. 21 We need to have some integration. We need 22 to use today's modern technology with ours which we have 23 and surpassed for years, in some sense trying to catch up 24 to what our people have. 25 I like to see somebody who sat in school

1 for four (4) years to have the knowledge as Daniel here 2 in our community and our Elder. 3 But we need to absorb everything he has 4 because they'd never be able to walk in his footsteps, 5 and he is never going to be able to walk in theirs going 6 forward, but if we can preserve that and bring something 7 forward, better than what we have today. 8 And all I'm going to say is, you know, 9 when we talk about land withdrawals, the geology in going 10 forward for oil and gas is important. We need to 11 identify that so that we don't withdraw lands that we 12 cannot participate on. We need to select it jointly. 13 And I think in the Dehcho we have lots of 14 knowledgeable people, I really do, and the First Nations' 15 side have lots of ability, and I see lots of people in 16 this room. 17 But we're not working collectively to go 18 forward and we're leaving all our work; it's us 19 Aboriginal people. We talk about it every day. I hear 20 my Chief talk about how we're working towards the white 21 man's world, and the white man is controlling this and 22 white man's controlling that, but yet everybody that is 23 telling us how we're going to preserve our land and set 24 it forth, I don't see very many of our people there, 25 other than our Grand Chief up front.

1 Those are the type of changes we need to 2 make, because technically we're telling our people that 3 we don't have the ability and I -- I don't believe that, 4 I see people in this room that can be working with them. 5 And the problem we have is, when we get to 6 a document like this, our people really don't understand, 7 because they're not directly involved. 8 I look at this and I -- I have a difficult 9 time with some of it, but I'm -- I'm just one (1) member, 10 and in order to go forward, people need to really 11 understand that. 12 So, when you have contractors like me, you 13 have, you know, the community of Fort Liard that's been 14 involved in the oil and gas, you know, feel that we don't 15 have very little input in how we can make it work. 16 We don't have all the answers; we have the 17 understanding of how it works. And going forward we need 18 to be involved in it, so, we can make it better, and 19 that's what it's all about. 20 But we're not asked, you know, we -- we -- 21 and when we talk about money, I hear Roy talking about 22 money, this is about money. Every time we have meetings, 23 you know, let's not kid ourselves, because that's what 24 gets us here, everybody gets paid. 25 I'm not here -- I'm here because I have

1 some interest in to see what's going on, how it's going 2 to affect us, and, you know, I don't have all the answers 3 but, you know, I have some personal experience which I 4 think is a lot -- is worth a lot more than scenarios, and 5 -- and hypothetical. 6 So, what disturbs me today is we have a 7 bunch of environmentalists who are going curve out how 8 we're going to go forward without participation, and -- 9 and we need to balance that out. So we need to have 10 people that understand that to participate. 11 And the oil and gas industry, I'm not 12 going to kid you, has been a big part of my life and it 13 can -- there -- there is some good things that I've seen 14 and there is some bad, and that's why I make this 15 statement. 16 If we're going to conduct business like we 17 do South of 60, let's not do it because I believe we're 18 not ready, but I think the terms and conditions can be 19 set that we can go forward in the manner, economics play 20 a role in everything we do, and we need to be effective 21 and efficient at that too. 22 And the environmentalists have their 23 opinion, and, you know, like I said, they destroyed one 24 (1) way -- a life of ours one time, and it sure disturbs 25 me to see them up front, without really conducting the

1 people that have the understanding of the task at hand, 2 is so important going forward. 3 Without that, then we just leave it for 4 someone else to curve it out for us. And I don't believe 5 in creating an industry that will be there, and if all 6 our People -- if all our People, Elders, people in the 7 community are making the kind of money those guys are, 8 then I say, that's great, let's do it. 9 But they're not. It's our People that sit 10 back beyond the table that are not -- not benefiting. 11 And -- and that's where we need to make a difference, and 12 I've always said that I'm fine, if everybody -- our 13 people are treated the same as the people up there are 14 making that kind of money, but we're not given that 15 chance. 16 And that needs to change. And the people 17 that have some understanding and, at, you know, at the 18 task at hand, need to be involved. And, for our Leaders, 19 it's a tough position for all of you guys, and there's 20 lots of work. 21 Even there's some technical things that I 22 don't understand, I don't have all the answers. But if 23 you truly work together at it, then you can develop 24 something that would be far much greater than what's -- 25 what's here today.

1 And I think, you know, this is a -- this 2 is a -- this is a Plan that's going to have many years of 3 effect for us, I think it's a good -- it's a good idea, 4 but really need everybody, you need the industry, you 5 need the people that have the experience and 6 understanding of the projects like that to say, look it, 7 you -- we can't do this, we can do that. 8 But make it so we don't stonewall 9 everybody because we make it so difficult, and our people 10 are the ones that suffer, but I believe we can balance 11 that out at the end of the day, truly working together 12 what needs to be done. 13 And I can go on, but that's just mine and 14 I feel that the people that have experience need to be 15 more involved and we have a tremendous amount of that in 16 the Dehcho. Thank you. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Thanks there, 18 Doug. 19 Again, as Chair, what I would like to do 20 is, we had a Presentation, I'd like to keep the comments 21 and questions about the Presentation, the public comments 22 that we have, there is going to be an opportunity for 23 that at the end of the Presentations, so if we can, if 24 there are comments, I would like people just to stay 25 focussed on the Presentation that was made.

1 Jonas Antoine, and then I think Rick, 2 okay. 3 Jonas Antoine...? 4 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: Mahsi. While we're, 5 excuse me, mentioned talking about cumulative effects. 6 One of the things that comes to my mind is the -- the 7 effect on animals. 8 Mostly the most sensitive animal that I 9 think about is the Caribou. Caribou are sensitive 10 because in order to survive, they have to be fat in order 11 to breed. 12 And the cow has to be fat in order to 13 carry the calf, and it has to be fat in order to give 14 birth to the calf, and the calf has to have that strength 15 in order to survive, because within the hour of its 16 birth, it has to struggle and it has to have the strength 17 to get up and start surviving. 18 If you don't have that, in that period 19 there, you are going to have a weak calf, and I guarantee 20 you the calf is not going to survive. And it's becoming 21 an endangered species. 22 For that reason our biologists have been 23 doing an awful lot of studies over the past couple years, 24 three (3) years, and we are finding out some very, very, 25 and using modern technology, we're finding some very,

1 very interesting things about that Caribou, that they 2 don't go all over the place. 3 There are some herds in the mountains 4 there, in the mountain ranges that do have a large range 5 but there's one (1) herd that carry -- cover a whole big 6 territory like this, and there's another herd there, and 7 another herd next to it. 8 And also using modern technology, we've 9 kind of tracked their movements. And in tracking the 10 movements, a couple of years ago, two (2) winters ago, 11 one of the collared cows in late April, in order to give 12 calf it -- to give birth to a calf, start travelling from 13 one vicinity on the northwest part of Trout Lake, 14 travelled in the northeasterly direction, about 70 15 kilometres. 16 And when it reached an area of activity, 17 it made a T, travelled one way, travelled one way, and 18 went back on its path to where it came from. 19 And that's very interesting to find out. 20 And in doing so, it interrupted its eating habits and it 21 probably dropped a very weak calf and the calf probably 22 didn't survive. 23 So that's the kind of things that we have 24 concerns about when we talk about cumulative effects, you 25 know. It -- in -- in planning, this land use there,

1 we've used our own traditional knowledge in order to do 2 that. 3 And you can correct me if I'm wrong, what 4 we've done was use an awful lot of old traditional Land 5 Use Maps, put them like this, and come up with areas 6 where the Caribou hunts have taken place, where a lot of 7 caribous were killed and kind of use areas like that as 8 special conservation zones. 9 So it's not done at random where we just 10 look at the map and said we'll keep people out of here. 11 That was not the way it was done. And that was also 12 using modern technology you know? 13 Doug spoke about going ahead, you know, 14 but it can be done, but it cannot be done with a gung ho 15 attitude you know? It's a very spiritual thing for the 16 traditional Dene person to make that decision and that is 17 one (1) of the things that we Dene people are struggling 18 with right now. 19 There has to be a transition, but it has 20 to be done with consensus by the Dene people because 21 without consensus our spirituality will not allow us to 22 do that because without consensus something bad can 23 happen to us especially when you disturb the earth and 24 life on it. You have to have that. 25 And I think that there will come a time

1 soon when we can see that light and start moving. We 2 struggle with the past in our minds and looking at the 3 future. There has to be a gap there some place and this 4 is where our land use plan comes in, thinking of the 5 future for all the people, not just the Dene people, you 6 know? 7 But the way we value our land is not the 8 same way that others value the land and there's that 9 great big difference there, you know? It's all about 10 money you know? When I started talking about this I was 11 talking about the stakeholder or the stock holders you 12 know, one versus the other. 13 And you have to have that connection some 14 place where you can make both understand one another and 15 move forward, you know? It's difficult you know? It is 16 very difficult, you know? 17 So we can keep that in mind and I just 18 wanted to bring that up because you know, that we -- we 19 have to make a decision some place, you know, and move 20 ahead. Mahsi. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Jonas. 22 Did you want to comment there, Mike? 23 MR. MIKE PETERS: I just wanted to -- 24 thank you -- thank Jonas for those comments and I also, 25 Jonas, I notice you -- when you were talking about how

1 you traditionally value the land and how we value. 2 I -- I like that you believe that they can 3 be brought together and that we can find an understanding 4 and that is certainly our industry's perspective and I 5 think what this land use plan is all about is trying to 6 find that understanding. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there. 8 Rick...? Rick Lafferty, number 12 I think 9 it is? 10 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: Good morning. 11 Thanks. Yeah, I -- I have an interesting story. 12 About five (5) years ago at the Dehcho 13 assembly when we were just beginning this plan and all 14 that stuff we had an archeologist doing a presentation at 15 the assembly and that archeologist was telling us that 16 you know -- he was kind of had a like a smirk on his 17 face, a tongue-in-cheek thing you know. 18 The Dene perhaps weren't always here since 19 time immemorial. The earliest possible sign we've found 20 of them was about ten thousand (10,000) years ago. So I 21 was sitting with Daniel Sonfrere and Paul Wright at 22 lunchtime afterwards and I was asking them what they 23 thought of that archeologist's point there. 24 And one (1) of them, I can't remember 25 which one (1), just kind of looked at me and he said, You

1 know, that's where we started to go wrong, before that 2 there was no sign of us. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: So anyway I'm -- I 7 -- I think I really appreciate CAPP's presentation and -- 8 and the reason I really liked their presentation is 9 because I think that the land use plan is already 10 working. The oil and gas industry has taken notice that 11 things are going to change. 12 You know I -- I lived in Calgary for a 13 year and a half working with the pipeline industry and in 14 doing that I learned that a lot of the new technology 15 that's used internationally was developed for our harsh 16 conditions up here. 17 So the NWT is already a testing place and 18 a place where technology has been developed incredibly 19 and I think that we can take the lead in -- in developing 20 environmentally friendly uses and -- and environmentally 21 friendly practices out there. 22 And you know there's a lot of grumbling 23 about this is a conservation plan. Well, I believe it is 24 but it's -- it's in conjunction with a land use plan. 25 It's actually a plan of how to use the land and so I

1 think that we need to give the people who developed this 2 plan a big round of applause because it will be 3 eliminating some of the options for the oil and gas 4 industry. And I think that's what it was meant to do you 5 know? I really do think that. 6 I think we want to limit the -- the 7 options and force best practices. We want to develop new 8 environmentally friendly methods and technologies so from 9 my perspective I want to thank you for acknowledging that 10 you know our plan is going to change your practices and 11 thank the -- the Committee for the work they did in this 12 regard. Mahsi. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: And, Mike, any 14 comments? If there are -- Jennifer Morin? 15 Okay, Jen, number 20, to the issue. 16 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Thank you, Mr. 17 Chairman. My question for you, Mike, is can you describe 18 some of the low impact seismic that has been done say in 19 Northern Alberta or other locations in BC or elsewhere in 20 Canada? 21 Did they have the same concerns with 22 safety and/or other factors? Thanks. 23 MR. MIKE PETERS: I can give you a 24 partial answer to that. I'm not a seismic expert so I 25 can't describe exactly what the techniques are but I

1 believe the -- the concern that I expressed about the -- 2 the pressure to reduce line widths and the -- the 3 constraints that puts on industry activity and at times 4 safe operating activity, yeah, that is a concern that we 5 felt everywhere that we operate down in Alberta, 6 throughout Canada. And it's one (1) that we don't know 7 where exactly that balance is but it -- it's a concern 8 that we have all over. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Any further 10 comments? Okay. If not I would like to thank Mike there 11 for his presentation. 12 Next is Anadarko. Are they here? If you 13 can move up to microphone number 17. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We're ready. 18 19 PRESENTATION BY ANADARKO: 20 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: Thank you, Mr. 21 Chairman, and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 22 Thank you to Chief Fabian for hosting this 23 in the K'atlodeeche territory. We are honoured to be 24 here to provide some of our comments with respect to the 25 land use plan.

1 At the outset I just want to .- sort of .- 2 sort couch our comments in such a fashion as -- where 3 they're coming from. We recognize very clearly that this 4 land use plan is your plan. 5 It is a plan that reflects the values of 6 the communities as well as the aspirations that the 7 communities have as they .- they see their .- their 8 growth forward. We would like to be a party to that, 9 sort of that -- that go forward plan and do it in a 10 respectful fashion. 11 Who is Anadarko? Well, we're an oil and 12 gas exploration company. We live and die by the drill 13 bit. We're active worldwide in countries such as 14 Algeria, Tunisia, and I've just learned of another 15 country in Canada, Cape Breton. It's a really 16 interesting country there too. And we're -- we're active 17 across Canada. Our head office is in Calgary and we have 18 offices throughout Alberta and in Nova Scotia. 19 We entered the Dehcho territory in about 20 2001 and we've been active drilling and conducting 21 seismic activities in the Liard Valley. In addition to 22 that -- 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me. For the 24 translators would you just pace it out a little bit 25 there.

1 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: He told me that 2 before I started. Sorry about that. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Take a Valium or 4 something, yeah. Okay. Yeah, if you could slow down a 5 bit there then the translators can follow. Okay? 6 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: My name is Andrew 7 Loosley. I'm with Anadarko Canada and this is Terry 8 Forkheim my colleague. Sorry about that. 9 We entered the Dehcho in 2001 and 10 conducted a number of drilling and seismic activities as 11 I said. We worked towards developing a proposal for the 12 construction and operation of a gathering system that 13 would connect our commercialized reserves that we had 14 identified in the Neetla (phonetic) and Arrowhead areas. 15 For a number of reasons we put that plan 16 on hold and have been monitoring the situation carefully 17 as we've been looking as events particularly as it 18 relates to this land use plan as well as the -- the 19 events with the communities. 20 We're encouraged to see the progress that 21 is being made and the progress that we've heard 22 yesterday, the comments made by Canada and also the 23 concerns expressed by the communities with respect to the 24 plan. 25 It is clear in our mind that everybody is

1 taking a very careful and planned response to the 2 development and the implementation of this plan and we 3 once again would like to commend and congratulate the 4 Committee on its hard work as well as the hard work the 5 communities have put into -- in the plan and -- and 6 expressing their views. 7 So my -- my concerns or our concerns are 8 just concerns. It's not criticisms. It's not meant as a 9 wanting to -- for change. We just want to express some 10 concerns as we see the plan as it reflects our 11 operations. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: So we take our role 16 very seriously because we have been involved with the 17 communities not only from a financial perspective in 18 terms of our investment in the area but also our 19 involvement with the communities. 20 As you know we're active in Fort Liard and 21 we've been working with Trout Lake and Nahanni Butte. A 22 lot of the familiar faces around the room. It's great to 23 see everybody here. 24 So we've got to know, you know, the 25 communities and the aspirations and where their plans are

1 leading and we'd like to be a party to that and a partner 2 in that development. 3 As Michael alluded to or stated we are a 4 member of CAPP. We've been a member -- active member of 5 CAPP since we came to Canada and we support the position 6 adopted by CAPP in its presentation. You know with 7 respect to the land use plan we've submitted letters 8 relative to our concerns and Heidi's been extremely 9 helpful in -- in responding and we thank you once again. 10 Now, our concerns fall under three (3) 11 sort of broad categories. It is a conservation plan. 12 It's -- it's incorporated as part of a land use plan and 13 then also the hydrocarbon potential. As one (1) speaker 14 originally spoke -- previously spoke -- that the -- we 15 don't know as an industry where -- where the reserves 16 are. 17 Michael made a statement about what the 18 potential is but until we conduct operations we're unable 19 to -- to confirm with absolute certainty what is there. 20 And cumulative effects management, it's a 21 hot topic today and so I might as well not be any 22 different than anybody else, but just to sort of start 23 out a little bit how we conduct or -- our operations. 24 Anadarko has a real simple policy as it 25 relates to how we undertake our operations and it's

1 really great as an employee that you can use this in your 2 decision making relative to your operations. It's 3 protect people, the environment and comply with all the 4 relative environmental legislation and regulations. 5 So really the rules of the game are really 6 what we're trying to understand particularly as it 7 relates to the land use plan on a go forward basis. So 8 our comments are based on, sort of founded on that sort 9 of a principle on which we operate our -- our business. 10 And I guess from a conservation 11 perspective we would encourage you to take due care and 12 consideration on the amount of land that you -- you tie 13 up for full protection or special management. 14 And I guess it goes back to sort of the 15 aspirations and the visions that the communities have. 16 We want to -- I always remember what Chief Rita Cli said 17 to me when I first started up here is we're doing this 18 for our future generations. So this plan will have an 19 impact in that regard. 20 We too believe as our colleague from CAPP 21 stated that we believe that this plan can work in concert 22 with development, that land stewardship and development 23 can work together to find a strike that balance for 24 development because there's business interests, there's 25 interests in continuing with protecting the -- the

1 environment and wildlife as Jonas stated. 2 So we believe it can be done together but 3 ultimately the full impact of this plan you know, we're 4 visitors here as a company. I've always sort of 5 maintained that. 6 We're going to be here for a short period 7 of time. We believe it will be a lot longer than twenty- 8 five (25) years but -- but the impact after we're gone, 9 it's the communities that are going to be sort of dealing 10 with this plan as it -- as it goes forward. 11 So we're encouraged that there's dialogue 12 going on and looking at ways in which the plan can be 13 changed or modified to reflect those values that the 14 communities have. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: I gave the 19 translators a break there. Exploration here in the 20 Northwest Territories and particularly in the Liard 21 Valley is in its infancy and we're just learning stuff, 22 new every time we undertake an operation. So it's really 23 important to sort of, as industry grows here things will 24 change undoubtedly. 25 At this current time we need sort of -- as

1 our -- my CAPP colleagues talked about we need large 2 tracts of land for -- for development just so that we can 3 get an understanding of what the geological potential is 4 there of the -- of the areas for us. 5 We need to support -- sort of the data 6 that we have I'm sure we're pretty -- Heidi will tell you 7 this -- we're pretty cautious about sharing information. 8 We sort of volunteer it but we don't really give it 9 because it's -- we're fairly competitive and consequently 10 we're sort of somewhat hesitant to -- to provide sort of 11 the research that we've done ourselves internally 12 particularly as it relates to some of our -- for our -- 13 our drilling activities. 14 But I guess as we move forward, you know 15 as industry decides and finds more information, that 16 information will become more available to a broad range 17 of companies. And we met with Louie Esaloonie (phonetic) 18 the other week and he talked about having more companies 19 coming up here as part of the overall process. 20 And we encourage that. Competition's 21 great but you know at this beginning juncture we're kind 22 of strapped by being the only guys in town actually in 23 the Liard Valley at this point in time. 24 Well, I'm -- I'm not a scientist but I'm 25 just going to say that we support what CAPP said and I --

1 I go back to what David Livingstone said yesterday about 2 the numbers. 3 What is the number? I'm not saying it's 4 right or it's wrong, we're just saying that our view is 5 at this point in time that it could sort of impede 6 development on a go forward basis. 7 We're not saying that we don't want to 8 protect. Remember what I said about, you now, comply and 9 protect, but we have to -- we take that into account in 10 terms of our investment decisions. 11 At this point in time it's hard for us to 12 commit future capital dollars, based on some of the 13 concerns that we have relative to the plan. 14 And we're encouraged once again, that the 15 communities and the leaders are -- are communicating 16 their concerns and their interests with respect to the 17 plan to ensure that you get it right, and we encourage 18 that to continue on. 19 But go back to that whole notion of 20 striking a balance between what economic development and 21 those visions that you have for your communities, as well 22 as conservation. 23 Well, yeah, we are responsible to the guys 24 that pay our bills, that's the investors and the 25 shareholders that put their pension monies into

1 investments such as Anadarko, and we're responsible to 2 the employees and the communities in which we operate in, 3 to our partners. We've always viewed our activities in 4 the north, as a partnership with the communities. 5 We believe that we can be a positive 6 partner, but we've got to make sure that we can actually 7 get a return on our investment for our shareholders. 8 We're encouraged that the communities have 9 a strong and visible voice in this plan, because it's 10 them that are going to be implementing it and living with 11 the plan for years to come. 12 What we need is clarity and some direction 13 as to how you want to go forward, we'll evaluate that at 14 that time, it's nothing personal. It may be that we may 15 have an opportunity elsewhere to put our money. 16 So thank you very much, I look forward to 17 your questions, and thank you for today. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks Andrew. 19 Again the floor is open for questions. 20 Petr Cizek again, if we can stay focussed 21 to the presentation that was just made, okay? 22 Petr...? 23 24 QUESTION PERIOD: 25 MR. PETR CIZEK: You state in your

1 presentation that the cumulative effects thresholds will 2 restrict development. I would submit to you that the 3 cumulative effects threshold will restrict three (3) 4 dimensional seismic carried out in the conventional way, 5 with three (3) to five (5) metre wide cutlines, cut by 6 bulldozers. 7 As I mentioned to CAPP, the main -- the 8 main feature that creates the huge fragmentation on the 9 landscape is seismic, and I'd like to get your views on 10 using lower impact seismic, since you've already done it 11 once down in Liard. 12 I don't know why you did it, whether it 13 was a voluntary thing, and I'd like to know how 14 successful it's been, whether you're willing to continue 15 to implement those kind of practices. 16 I know the seismic that you did in 2001 in 17 Liard wasn't -- was sort of a medium impact seismic where 18 you were alternating 1.5 metre lines with conventional 19 lines. About every fourth or fifth line was a 20 conventional 5 metre line, and I'd like to hear your 21 views about whether you're willing to -- to commit to 22 those practices and to even lower impact practices? 23 Thanks. 24 MR. TERRY FORKHEIM: Thank you, Petr. In 25 regards to seismic practices, the oil and gas industry

1 has made great strides in reducing impact, and as a 2 previous speaker mentioned, in Alberta it's becoming more 3 of a requirement. 4 And certainly where we're able to do it, 5 we're quite keen and interested in that. I can tell you 6 that there's a lot of study into new techniques and 7 methods that will reduce our impact as low as possible. 8 We have to factor in, however, safety considerations, 9 landscape, terrain, time of year, and other issues such 10 as those, before we can make our final decision on how 11 the seismic will be conducted. 12 So there's not a -- a one (1) simple 13 answer for everything, but I can tell you with certainty 14 that the industry is definitely working towards reducing 15 our impact as much as possible. Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Harry Deneron? 17 Chief Harry Deneron...? 18 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: Good morning. You 19 know Doug was mentioned here this morning, you know, 20 we've been doing seismic and other gas and oil activity 21 for years, including myself, I've been involved in those 22 kind of construction for years, to create opportunity and 23 jobs. And we worked with all the companies that went 24 into Fort Liard to conduct seismic or other activity, 25 pipelines and so forth, we worked with them.

1 Like for instance, like on the west side 2 of the Liard River, we do all the seismic work by 3 helicopter, and in most -- some places, we -- we ask them 4 to do cuts so that we can use that road for our 5 travelling. And such as the 3D, we don't really 6 necessarily want to use those, because you know, they're 7 like a sugar cube, and there we want -- it's sensitive, 8 we -- we ask those guys to cut down on the size of the 9 activity, like width and so forth. 10 So we -- we know how to work with these 11 guys and I think Anadarko is one (1) of the companies 12 that took our concern and developed it into a way that it 13 was done. And we will continue, in the future we will 14 continue to work with those companies that conduct those 15 activities in our area. 16 That's why it's so important to look after 17 your own traditional land and have input into those kind 18 of activities day by day, or by -- I guess doing work 19 with them on the land use permit, those kind of activity 20 we've been involved with for years. That's all I want to 21 say, thanks. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Harry. 23 Erica, is it? Erica, number 20. 24 MS. ERICA JANES: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. 25 I just wanted to go back to the discussion about the

1 lower impact seismic and pick up on some of the safety 2 concerns that CAPP was touching on with the 1.5 metre 3 cutlines. 4 So with -- I was just wondering, with the 5 lower impact seismic that has been done in Liard in 2001, 6 how did you deal with the safety concerns that may have 7 arisen with that width of seismic cut? 8 MR. TERRY FORKHEIM: I can't comment on 9 specific safety measures. If you'd like I could talk to 10 our geophysical department and get some information back 11 to you. 12 But as Petr pointed out, for that project 13 he called it more of a medium impact, but the idea there 14 was it -- it was every alternating lines, they weren't 15 all necessarily the 1.5 and there was a -- a grid work 16 there, and if we needed to get someone out, there was a - 17 - a wider line within a reasonable distance. So that was 18 how that was addressed. 19 Now if we had them all very narrow, then 20 our safety team would have to have some sort of plan to 21 be able to deal with emergency situations. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there. Again, 23 Petr Cizek, is there any other speakers? Stanley 24 Sanquez. 25 Okay, Petr...?

1 MR. PETR CIZEK: Some call me Petr 2 Seismic. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Some people call him 4 Pinko Pete. 5 MR. PETR CIZEK: Just on -- on the safety 6 issue, a 1.5 metre line, I mean what -- what -- we chose 7 that number because that's the trigger for our land use 8 permit under the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water 9 Regulations. 10 And the reason that 1.5 metres is the 11 trigger that requires you to apply for a land use permit, 12 that is if you cut wider than 1.5 metres, it's very 13 clearly designed, I took out a measuring tape to figure 14 it all out, it's because you can fit a snowmobile or an 15 ATV within a 1.5 metre line. 16 If you have to go any wider -- you don't 17 have to go any wider than 1.5 metres for -- for a 18 snowmobile or an ATV. 19 And to show the picture of the poor guys, 20 four (4) guys hauling the stretcher down this long line 21 is -- is a little disingenuous if I might say because 22 those lines can accommodate a snowmobile or an ATV to 23 haul the injured person out of there. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Petr. 25 Comments there, Andrew?

1 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: No. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Stanley Sanguez? 3 Chief Jean Marie River. 4 CHIEF STANLEY SANGUEZ: Thanks. Yeah, 5 Andrew, your -- the company that you work for, it seems 6 like it's a large company. If the company does research 7 in the community effect because when you go down to 8 Toronto I can't even breath over there because of the -- 9 the amount of vehicles. 10 And does Anadarko do education on the 11 wasteful of natural gas in -- in -- they call it the 12 lower 48 State because we -- we've gone to Houston, 13 Texas, and -- and looked at that and they're saying that 14 lower 48 State is -- is blacking out. 15 Now, because of Anadarko being -- being 16 that kind of company, to me somewhere you have to educate 17 the -- the public, the state, the world, about the 18 wasteful of the energy that has been sucked out of the 19 ground. You go to -- you go down to Las Vegas, you see 20 all these lights all over the place. 21 Somewhere they're going to -- Anadarko's 22 going to have to -- to start educating people to don't be 23 so wasteful because I don't know how much longer this 24 earth is going to provide the -- the natural gas and oil 25 that -- that is needed.

1 And that's the two (2) things that -- that 2 I just want to raise with -- with Anadarko itself is the 3 education part of it and the research part. Thanks. 4 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: Thank you, Chief 5 Stanley. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah. Andrew, is there 7 any comments to that? 8 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: The comments have 9 been duly noted. I will say that we do take our role in 10 communities very seriously and we're active in programs 11 in terms of education in schools and we'll continue to do 12 so. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good stuff. Is there 14 any further comments? 15 Dennis Deneron, number 19. 16 CHIEF DENNIS DENERON: Good morning. 17 Good morning, Andrew. Yeah. You know Trout Lake's been 18 doing caribou studies over a year, almost going to two 19 (2) years. The -- the work that we've been doing with 20 collared caribou with us they're a species at risk. 21 So what we're -- we're doing is we're 22 trying to study the caribou and already with the 23 traditional knowledge and the new scientific study what 24 we found out was that caribou are avoiding the seismic 25 lines because due to the fact the seismic lines are kind

1 of straight cutlines and the wolf uses the lines a lot. 2 So when -- when we go hunting we go out in 3 the bush and get off the trails and that and then we see 4 a whole bunch of caribou tracks and trails right on the 5 side of the road but not really on the road. 6 Those are the kind of things that we have 7 a concern and when ENCANA was in Trout Lake we brought up 8 that concern to them that these straight cutlines and 9 that it's -- and it's easier for wolves and that to use 10 that lines and then hunt caribou and that and take them 11 down easily. 12 So that's why they're -- they're kind of - 13 - we figure that they're out in the bush and not using 14 cutlines. 15 Then they said they use a new technique 16 where you go, you know, you don't have straight cutlines 17 but going in a zig zag pattern using GPS. And I told 18 them that if you'd do that ten (10) years ago you'd 19 probably get charged for impaired. 20 So this is a new technique that they're 21 using now and -- and they said that they don't use, like 22 the -- the way they used to using two (2) cap lace or 23 that, they just use one (1) right now and go in a zig zag 24 pattern. 25 And I was wondering, is that the same

1 technique that Anadarko's using to avoid using straight 2 cutlines? And also 3D -- 3D seismic too, we found out 3 that a lot of wolves are in that area, those kind of 4 things that happen. So I just wanted to know if you're 5 using that same technique too. So thank you. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. 7 MR. TERRY FORKHEIM: Just to clarify what 8 Dennis was describing is avoidance cutting; that's where 9 you do a meander through the forest and avoid taking out 10 as many trees as possible and that is -- that does result 11 in a -- a wandering line. It's not a straight line and 12 often hard to pick up certainly from a helicopter and 13 within a few years hard to pick up from the ground. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. The 15 next speaker is Shane. 16 MR. SHANE PARRISH: Hello. I guess my -- 17 our question would be -- comment/question -- in your 18 presentation you said under the -- which is kind of a 19 concern I guess -- under the -- the existing proposed 20 special management zone thresholds my under -- I think 21 did I hear right that you would not be able to proceed 22 with your development, the proposed -- your proposed 23 development, proposed development being the pipeline and 24 to tie in some of your discoveries? 25 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: Yes. Shane, our

1 interpretation of the plan, in the plan they make 2 reference to areas of the Liard Valley being -- exceeding 3 the current -- the -- the thresholds as proposed and then 4 there is instructions to -- in our view to the regulatory 5 agencies relative to land use permits. 6 However what our view is is that we look 7 at the development or the investment in the area long- 8 term and so if we are already exceeding the current 9 thresholds as proposed by the plan we would be at risk 10 relative to the other sort of wells or activities we want 11 to undertake. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there. Again, 13 supplementary? 14 MR. SHANE PARRISH: Well, yeah. 15 Yesterday I missed a presentation Chief Deneron made with 16 respect to the introduction of different terms, 17 thresholds. That information of course was posted on the 18 web. 19 If you had -- if you've had a chance to 20 look at that and would -- would that allow for the 21 project of your magnitude to proceed? 22 MR. TERRY FORKHEIM: That information is 23 definitely the type of dialogue that we feel would need 24 to occur to give us the -- the certainty that we need. 25 So that's certainly the type of discussion we'd like to

1 participate in, yes. 2 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: And supplemental to 3 that and we're encouraged by the -- by the initiative 4 that the community has taken with respect to that. 5 They're putting out some alternatives. As Terry said 6 absolutely that -- that encourages us. That will allow 7 us to move a project forward. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Andrew. 9 Petr...? Petr Cizek and then Jonas 10 Antoine. 11 MR. PETR CIZEK: Just a -- a point of 12 clarification again about the places that exceed these 13 thresholds. Map -- there's a map on page 176 of the 14 background document. It looks like this. 15 Virtually every single area that exceeds 16 the threshold and I point you to these places in dark 17 brown just east of the Liard River as well as the Cameron 18 Hills, if you look at the satellite imagery that we 19 gathered, at great expense, the areas that exceed the 20 threshold under our current calculations are areas where 21 they did, in this case, it was Paramount who seems to 22 like doing a lot of 3D seismic using 8 metre wide 23 cutlines. 24 All those places that exceed the threshold 25 are as a result of the 3D seismic, and as I said before,

1 I've done extensive modelling of fragmentation of the 2 landscape from oil and gas but you can put in as many 3 pipelines and as many access roads as you need and it 4 won't exceed the threshold. 5 Over and over again, whether it's in the 6 Liard or whether it's in the Mackenzie Delta or in 7 Coldelle Hills, what pushes it over the limit is the 3D 8 seismic, without a doubt and it's -- again, the issue is 9 doing that in a different way. 10 To say that the cumulative effects 11 threshold prohibits development is inaccurate. It 12 prohibits -- it will place restrictions on 3D seismic 13 because just about every place where it's exceeded is as 14 a result of 3D seismic. 15 MR. TERRY FORKHEIM: Petr, we -- Petr..? 16 We agree with your comments that 3D seismic has a large 17 impact, so with that in mind, we feel that with the use 18 of avoidance cutting, low impact, narrow lines and some 19 heli-portable in the mix that we could bring that down. 20 The question is, can we bring it down 21 below a certain magical number or not? So, when we take 22 that in con -- in conjunction with the proposal from -- 23 that Shane referred to earlier, that's the type of 24 dialogue that needs to occur. 25 So, absolutely, we can reduce our

1 footprint and our impact from 3D seismic. It's just a 2 question of how much and then that factors into the 3 larger question about what amount of information we need 4 to make our decisions to make a viable project. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, next is Jonas 6 Antoine, and then followed by Heidi Wiebe. 7 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: Thank you. Anadarko 8 is -- is a large company. 9 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: No, it's still 10 small, small. 11 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: Compared to. In -- I 12 know we're talking about land, but there's something that 13 comes before that and that's the people that have the 14 right to harvest on those lands. 15 Has your company dealt with compensating 16 the harvesters, the traditional land users ever, or talk 17 about it, or have a plan and would you be willing to talk 18 about those things in the future because, you know, in -- 19 you may see a large area with no footprints at all one 20 winter. That doesn't mean that we've abandoned it. 21 We have that right to go out there and use 22 it as long as the sun shines and the rivers flow and the 23 grass grows. We have that right. 24 So, if you find an area that is -- has 25 great potential for oil and gas and has no footprints,

1 you still have to deal with the people, you know. 2 So, if -- if -- if you ever -- would you 3 be willing to talk about those things in the future and 4 make some plans? 5 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: Absolutely, Jonas. 6 We value the communications with the communities very 7 dearly and we want to be a good corporate citizen and 8 it's a matter of sitting down and discussing a lot of 9 those issues. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Heidi, and then Ron. 11 Go ahead, Heidi. 12 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: You mentioned that 13 through your best practices that you've been using, that 14 you can reduce your footprint but, again, you're not 15 quite sure at this point how low you can get below that 16 threshold. 17 In our discussions with both CAPP and the 18 oil and gas industry over the last couple of years, we've 19 been asking for the industry to put forward an 20 alternative to tell us what is workable given, you know, 21 your desire to use best practices. 22 So, I guess I'm wondering if Anadarko, 23 maybe in conjunction with CAPP, would be willing to put 24 together something, based on your activities and your 25 experience that does provide a workable alternative that

1 we can at least bring to the table for discussion and 2 consideration. 3 Because, up to this point, the only 4 numbers being brought forward have been coming from the 5 Committee and it would broaden the discussion if we could 6 hear additional perspectives and that has not yet been 7 forthcoming. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: I can't speak on 12 behalf of CAPP. Maybe you can speak first, Mike? 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Roy...? Okay, is... 17 MR. MIKE PETERS: Thank you, Mr. 18 Chairman. I can briefly comment. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, yes, go ahead. 20 MR. MIKE PETERS: One of the difficulties 21 there, Heidi, is that we don't know that number and, if 22 we had that number, we would have suggested it to the 23 Committee a long time ago and as was mentioned yesterday, 24 this is a new science and so I think all of the companies 25 are trying to struggle to find out what is an acceptable

1 number. 2 CAPP is an industry association. It's 3 difficult because we do speak on behalf of industry and 4 so we would have to get a lot of reply and not just from 5 Anadarko but from all of our members. 6 And I think I'll leave it there. If we 7 had that number, we would suggest it. The only -- maybe 8 I'll add one (1) thing, which is, that maybe that magic 9 number doesn't exist, because there are quite a lot of 10 factors that need to be taken into account depending on 11 where you are, the geology, the geography, and so it is 12 quite difficult to come up with that number. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, there. Is 14 there a rebuttal to that, Andrew? 15 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: Well, I'm just 16 discussing with my colleague and we can commit to -- to 17 working with you and coming up with some kind of number. 18 We're sort of -- we're one (1) company, as 19 part of a larger industry, and we can't make sort of 20 commitments on behalf of others, but I think we can 21 collaborate some more. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks. Next is 23 Ron Antoine and followed by Roy Fabian. Ron...? 24 Again, just a quick little announcement. 25 We have been running behind here, so if people want to

1 grab coffees, you can do so. We'll run until lunch 2 here, because we're running behind a bit. Okay, Ron, if 3 you can continue. 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 MR. RON ANTOINE: I have a question for 8 Anadarko. In your 2000/2001 report, it happened to do -- 9 taken out volume of timber. We talk about land, the 10 importance of land. 11 Can you tell me how much volume of timber 12 and how much forested area you covered to remove all that 13 timber using your 3D seismic operation? Thank you. 14 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: I don't have that 15 number right at hand, but I can get back to the Committee 16 with regards to that request. I don't have a problem 17 there. 18 MR. RON ANTOINE: I would appreciate 19 that. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Roy...? Sorry, Chair 24 stepped away from the table. Chief Roy Fabian...? 25 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Yeah, I guess, you

1 know, it's interesting listening to the big boys, you 2 know. Like, you know, these guys are, you know, multi- 3 nationals. 4 Like, because it's hard for me to, you 5 know, like, the multi-nationals are not interested in 6 joint venturing or anything, eh? Like, they -- they just 7 want to take the oil and take it out as quickly as 8 possible and they want to get away from it. 9 You want to make as much money as 10 possible, as quickly as possible. But there are, you 11 know, like, just for information, there are, you know, 12 really small oil companies that are willing to work with, 13 you know, First Nations that are willing to share, like, 14 in actual joint ventures. 15 And we presently have a joint venture set 16 up where, you know, the company offered us 50 percent of 17 the ownership and they would, you know, pay for 18 everything up front and then we just have to pay them 19 back over the years, and it's going to be a long term 20 kind of a deal, but in the end, we end up with 50 percent 21 of the -- of the company. 22 And that's an oil company willing to work with us. 23 And, you know, I guess that's -- you know, 24 like sometimes these -- and they're -- like they took the 25 Land Use Plan and said, look, Roy, we can work with your

1 Land Use Plan. 2 We can -- and, you know, we'd be even 3 willing to go further. You know, like in terms of your 4 seismic, we'd be willing to work. I'm not sure what the 5 term is, but work using helicopters to -- to do the 6 seismic work. 7 And, you know, like and for me that -- I 8 find that interesting where, you know, the little small 9 companies can do stuff like that but yet, you know, the 10 big boys, you know, can't do that, you know. 11 And -- and I just find that interesting. 12 You know, and like people mention how some, you know, 13 Aboriginal business are involved with this -- the oil 14 industry and using Cats and putting in seismic cutlines 15 and stuff like that, you know. 16 And, like, as a First Nation ourselves and 17 another, man, we, you know, we don't want to get involved 18 in that kind of a thing where, you know, there are just 19 going to be straight cutlines going in and, you know, 20 we're trying to -- and then the other thing is, we don't 21 have the money to invest into those kind of big 22 equipment. We just don't have the money. 23 So one of the things we -- we've been 24 looking at is developing -- we own the helicopter 25 company, yeah. And if Anadarko ever wants to do any

1 seismic work with helicopters, we got -- we got one (1) 2 little helicopter that can work with you, eh? 3 And I know that other Bands and First 4 Nations got joint ventures with, you know, other 5 helicopter companies and, you know, they're -- they're, 6 you know, and that's the direction we need to go. 7 And now we need, you know, like for us, we 8 want to get involved in it but, you know, like, we just 9 don't have the resources to be able to do that, so, we 10 get into these long term, you know, processes where 11 eventually, like even a helicopter company, like, the 12 company itself had no money to, you know, we have no 13 money to buy a helicopter. 14 So, we have got a joint venture who agreed 15 to buy the heli -- you know, they set up a company and 16 they -- they used their name to get a loan to buy a 17 helicopter and so now we -- and, like, I think this year 18 we're going to be in -- in the clear. We're going to 19 fully own the helicopter, you know, are the debts are 20 paid out. 21 So those kind of a deals is what, you 22 know, like, for us, we get involved in. And then so when 23 -- when the issue of us getting involved, it's difficult 24 because, you know, like, we just don't have the resources 25 to do that.

1 So, like this year was the first time we 2 got involved in -- with Paramount because we made a deal 3 with a company that's going to do some work up there and 4 -- and -- and you know, we're -- we're going to be 5 sharing, you know, the profit at the end of the deal 6 because we can't afford to buy the cat or a grader or, 7 you know, and stuff like that. 8 But we also -- this year we bought our 9 snow making machine. Can you imagine that. You're in 10 the Northwest Territories and we have to buy a snow 11 making machine. But, you know, that -- that's what we 12 did and, you know, those are a few things that we're 13 doing. 14 And again, there, we have no money to 15 invest into it. So the other -- the company was willing 16 to joint venture with us, paid for it and, you know, we - 17 - I think we put a few dollars into it but basically they 18 paid for the most of it and then they used their name to 19 -- to finance the rest of it. 20 So, you know, that's the kind of situation 21 we're in and for -- for us to get fully involved in this 22 and it's -- it's -- like, for me there's -- we've got to 23 do some risk management on our part because we've been 24 burned a lot about -- with industry and, you know, 25 getting involved in -- in business.

1 And, you know, we've got to make sure with 2 things that we get into we are going to get returns. You 3 know, we need to take a look at a company and make sure 4 we do our due diligence and all this other, you know, 5 fancy words that we have to do in getting into business. 6 So, now, like I just want Anadarko to know 7 that, you know, the K'atlodeeche First Nation and -- and 8 the Deh Gah Got'ie First Nation have a joint venture in a 9 helicopter and if you're ever interested in doing 10 helicopter seismic we can offer you that. So, just for 11 the record. 12 But the other thing is I've got a staff 13 member here that wants to ask a question. She needed my 14 permission, she said, so. 15 MS. VERNA TAMBOUR: The question I asked 16 our chief was: What is the cost difference between 3D 17 seismic exploration or seismic testing as opposed to 18 avoidance, or what do you call -- something else that 19 they were talking about, low-impact seismic work? 20 Does the cost difference then preclude 21 what you -- what work you're going to do or how you're 22 going to do the seismic work? 23 MR. ANDREW LOOSLEY: As my colleague 24 Terry indicated, we are -- like, different programs are 25 utilized and depending on different circumstances,

1 geography, topography, et cetera. So you can't make a 2 sort of a -- it's not just a clear cut decision relative 3 to cost. It's all based on a number of other factors. 4 But I can commit to get back to you, with respect. I'll 5 talk to our geophysical people and give you that answer. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. Okay, 7 what we'd like to do is move on. I know we're running 8 way behind schedule here. I'm being asked if we're going 9 to go through lunch but probably not. If we can, we'd 10 like to move on to the next people. I'd like to thank 11 Anadarko for your presentation. 12 And we can move on. We'd like to get 13 Canadian Zinc up there and then we'll break for lunch. 14 We've had a long morning. So, Dan, if you can get into 15 position. Microphone number 17. 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, Dan...? 20 21 PRESENTATION BY CANADIAN ZINC: 22 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Good morning, 23 everybody. My name is Dan O'Rourke, I'm with the 24 Canadian Zinc Corporation and I think everybody in this 25 room probably recognizes the picture that's now up on the

1 slide; that's -- that's what was once called the Old 2 Cadillac (phonetic) property but it is -- you know, we 3 now call it the Prairie Creek Property and it's the mine 4 that we're currently in the process of applying to 5 reopen. 6 Before I commence my comments on the land 7 -- the draft land use plan I'd like to first of all state 8 to each of you, and particularly Chief Roy Fabian, our 9 thanks for being allowed to participate in this process. 10 We have been involved in the plan 11 preparation since early 1994 and -- and I would be one of 12 the first to stand up and applaud the very hard work that 13 Heidi and her people have put into this. I -- I 14 understand full well how difficult it is to balance what 15 appear to be opposing interests; that is the interests of 16 community people as well as the interests of industry. 17 And these will be matters that I'll cover 18 in my presentation. Before I get going though, you'll 19 probably, if you remember it from this session last year, 20 the lady who runs our office in Fort Simpson, Ms. Rita 21 Cli. She's currently suffering from an illness and was 22 unable to attend this week. 23 But she does pass on her best regards to 24 all the leaders and community people who are here and her 25 hopes that you're able to work together to make this plan

1 work. 2 Now, in making our comments on the plan, 3 it's -- I think it's good we put this in a little bit of 4 context in the sense that remember what you see behind me 5 on the screen, that's not a drawing or a painting; that's 6 a photograph. This exists. 7 This was built in the early 1980's. And 8 hence, you know, this is an old existing right, as they 9 say. And for that reason the Canadian Zinc properties, 10 which includes both mineral leases and exploration 11 claims, they are exempt from the planning process. 12 I believe the term is we will be 13 considered a non-conforming activity, okay. And I think 14 it's important to remember that because the comments 15 we're making today it isn't -- it isn't really from 16 Canadian Zinc's standpoint in terms of protecting our 17 interest because they're exempt from the plan as it is. 18 It's simply -- I guess it gets in with 19 your chapter in the draft plan about Dene laws, about -- 20 and in particular the one about sharing benefits. It's 21 our way, as a company, of sharing our knowledge and 22 experience in this area just to help you out in terms of 23 this balancing act that you have. 24 Now, as a starting point though, I'd just 25 like to go back, just so everybody remembers where this

1 planning process started. And you'll recall this is -- 2 this work that you're doing now, which has been going on 3 for the last several years, came out of the interim 4 measures agreement. 5 And -- and that was an agreement obviously 6 signed between the leadership here of the Dehcho First 7 Nations and the two (2) levels of government. And in 8 that agreement there's two (2) very specific parameters 9 or guiding guidelines, you might say, for the development 10 of the plan. 11 And I bring these up because, you know, 12 particularly with respect to the first one, you know, 13 what we're trying to do here is promote the social, 14 cultural and economic well being of the communities, you 15 know, that's evident. 16 Anybody who knows anything about any of 17 the Dehcho First Nations knows that as the people 18 continue to transition, and that is, change their 19 lifestyles from the traditional way to what is generally 20 called the southern way style way, they're only going to 21 be successful if there's economic opportunities. 22 And the way we in Canadian Zinc read that 23 when we first saw it, it means that, look, if you're a 24 company working up there you're going to have to do this 25 in a way to make sure that these people benefit and

1 benefit in the long run. 2 It's got to promote their well being as 3 communities and we're in full support of that. But it 4 also suggested to us that somebody in the mining industry 5 that the plan would -- would really focus on that 6 particular area. 7 But also as the second paragraph suggests, 8 it's not just development it's conservation. And, you 9 know, and anybody who understands anything about the 10 North in general and the Dehcho in particular, where the 11 Dehcho process is yet to be completed, I think they will 12 agree that conservation is going to have to continue to 13 play a role for some time. 14 And the -- the message I say or the 15 comments I'll be suggesting to you today is more on how 16 you handle that conservation as opposed to whether or not 17 you do it or not. 18 Now, where we've gone since the IMA was 19 signed, and this exercise first started is to the draft 20 that we're now looking at. And, you know, when you go 21 through the -- the actual exclusion zones for each 22 sector, because I know overall I think the number is 23 roughly 50 percent of the Dehcho region is excluded from 24 activity, and that's consistent, I guess, with the 25 interim land withdrawals that have been done.

1 But when you look at it on a sector by 2 sector basis, the number gets bigger. And, you know, I'm 3 not talking about the purple areas where there's special 4 management conditions attached. This -- these 5 percentages represent the area of your region where 6 activity in these particular sectors is banned. It just 7 -- it cannot happen. 8 And what's surprising to us as a mining 9 company here or just what you might say is a member of 10 your community, is that a couple of these sectors, in 11 particular mining, oil and gas but also forestry, they're 12 really the only economic opportunities of any 13 significance and sustain-ability that you're going to 14 have in this region for a long, long time to come. 15 So that, you know, if you're looking to 16 really work on promoting the social and economic well 17 being of your communities you're going to have to rely on 18 these industries. We're also concerned, though, on how - 19 - how these exclusions were packaged in that they're 20 called conservation zones. 21 And I -- I say that because -- and I know 22 Heidi has said -- told us many, many times that, well, 23 regardless of the size of the exclusion it can be changed 24 over time. And I believe right now the process will be 25 every five (5) years that you'll look at reviewing them.

1 But what I would suggest each of you 2 particularly as Chief and Metis Presidents think about is 3 that when -- when you create plans that become legally 4 binding, in effect they become like another regulation. 5 And regulations -- and I know because in a former life I 6 used to work for the government, regulations are like 7 prices. 8 You know, they're very easy to go up or 9 put on but they're very, very, difficult to lower or take 10 off. And what I'm suggesting there is in a few years 11 down the road if you were to think, well, maybe on the 12 oil and gas side instead of excluding say 60 percent, 13 maybe we're thinking now it should only be 30 percent. 14 If, in your planning exercise, you've 15 labelled that as a conservation zone and the government 16 has made it become like a regulation or a law, you know, 17 all of a sudden it's got a new sensitivity attached to 18 it. 19 And when you want to go back and revise 20 that you're going to have a lot of people and many of the 21 people that you see in this room today who are non-Dehcho 22 people who are going to be fighting you because it was 23 called a conservation zone. 24 The other concern, and I can't speak for 25 the other industries, is while you look at mining, you

1 know, you could say, well, look, we're leaving 40 percent 2 of the region open to mining. And, you know, this is a 3 big region, there's no doubt about it. 4 And on the face of it, all things equal, 5 as they say, is that really that unreasonable? The 6 concern we see here for your future is that while, yeah, 7 you're leaving open 40 percent, well, of the 60 percent 8 you're closing off you've pretty well closed off all the 9 high mining potential. 10 And -- and this is based just on studies 11 that were done by the committee themselves. You know, 12 don't take our word for it. So, in a sense, you're 13 almost saying, we don't want to have a mining industry. 14 And maybe you don't, I don't know. But, 15 you know, I just wanted to make sure that you understand 16 that. Also, as you can see by the bottom number, the 17 plan allows for about 23 percent of the region to be I 18 think what some people have called 'wide open'; that's 19 the white areas on the map. 20 Well, remember, I'm with Canadian Zinc. 21 We're not -- we're not subject to the terms of this plan 22 so you could say that we're almost allowed to be wide 23 open. Well, a couple of weeks ago we just finished our 24 sixth environmental assessment in six (6) years for 25 exploration related activities only.

1 And, you know, I don't -- and I'll talk a 2 little bit more about this in a minute. I don't know how 3 much people know about the existing regulatory regime. 4 But I can tell you it's one of the toughest in the world. 5 And this is the new Mackenzie Valley. 6 Now, I know in the Dehcho, from a Dehcho 7 process point of view, you don't agree with how it's run. 8 But in terms of the -- the regulation and law that they 9 bring to bear on developers, there's nothing like it 10 anywhere else. And particularly with respect to how they 11 apply that act. 12 So, you know, to be -- when I look at that 13 23 percent, okay, 23 percent of the region will be open 14 to development; well, number 1, it's way too small in 15 terms of allowing an industry to develop and be 16 sustainable. 17 But also it -- it seems to suggest -- it's 18 made so small because there's so little regulation 19 governing the activity and I just wanted to make sure 20 that you do in fact understand that it's quite different 21 than that. 22 Also, it's worth noting that when you look 23 at this plan, you know, and I -- I'm not going to 24 belabour this point, but, you know, we think it's more 25 conservation than land use and we said so in a letter

1 which we sent to each of you as leaders last week on this 2 point. 3 And -- and the problem is, while 4 conservation is good and from a traditional standpoint 5 that's what you should have, but as you are making -- 6 your people are making this transition, you know, you 7 have to think differently. 8 You have to think of your future 9 generations. And a good litmus test to me in terms of 10 where you are in a plan is to see what the groups who 11 oppose development, how they feel about it. 12 And the slide I have up there now, and 13 these are just quotes taken out of the latest round of 14 correspondence from these groups on the revised draft. 15 Some of these groups, I must admit, I've never heard of 16 before but the point of what I'm showing here is that 17 everybody is in support of this particular plan on the 18 conservation side. 19 And, you know, why shouldn't they be. I 20 mean, nowhere else in the world that I know of has there 21 ever been a plan that leans this much towards 22 conservation. And I'm not being negative here about 23 these groups. This is their mission in life. 24 You know, I think, and correct me if I'm 25 wrong, I think they all sign on to the Boreal Initiative

1 which is, you know, not really a plan in itself it's just 2 a goal but to protect 50 percent of the boreal forest. 3 But I just wanted you to know that their 4 mission in life is to stop development and they like this 5 plan. So this should tell you something right there. 6 And -- and then I turn to the plan itself and this is in 7 the background report, and there actually is a section on 8 the Boreal Initiative and, you know, the plan takes 9 credit itself that, you know, we are consistent with this 10 initiative. 11 And -- and, again, you know, the only 12 reason I -- I raise this is that your people they have 13 very big needs today. But they're only going to grow 14 over time and, you know, you have -- you're going to have 15 to look for a way to provide that level of economic 16 opportunity that's required. 17 We also looked at -- at, you know, what 18 happened here. You know, we thought you were starting 19 out on a process, like I say, to reach a balanced level 20 of development and conservation. You seem to go very far 21 to the conservation. And so we sat down and we tried to 22 look at this and determine what had happened. 23 And I say this because we're going to make 24 very specific recommendations on how you could proceed 25 differently. But, you know, we looked at the level of

1 community awareness and participation and, you know, 2 we've been to some of the community sessions and we know 3 it's difficult to get people to come out. 4 But the question that it raises, and 5 there's no magic answer to that, but the question it 6 raises is how much do your people actually know about 7 this plan that's going to drive development for the 8 foreseeable future? 9 You know, do they really understand all 10 the implications? Also, how much do people understand 11 about the existing regulatory regime, how tough it is out 12 there? It's not like the old days here at all. Things 13 have changed dramatically. 14 And I say that in the context, is there a 15 need to start building additional levels of regulatory 16 requirement? You know, if you believe that there is, 17 that's fine. But, you know, have you actually looked at 18 that? 19 Also, and this is a big question mark, we 20 wonder why was industry not considered for membership on 21 the committee? You know, just so you'd have somebody at 22 the table who could explain, oh yeah, well, you know, 23 it's great that you want it done this way but, you know, 24 technologically we're only at this point. And, you know, 25 you could work together as communities and industry, you

1 know, to come to a common understanding. 2 And, lastly, we also looked at the level 3 of government participation and -- and maybe I'm naive 4 but, you know, I was under the assumption that the 5 government representation was there to make sure that the 6 communities and the planning committee were made fully 7 aware of the existing rules and regulations, their 8 comprehensive nature, how they're managed, how they're 9 applied and also to protect certain national interests, 10 whatever they may be. 11 But, you know, as -- as I've been told 12 recently by board staff, they were simply there -- or 13 committee staff, excuse me, they were simply there to be 14 a source of information, if they're drawn upon. And, you 15 know, I would have thought that the Government would have 16 taken a more active role there. 17 But here again, I turn to the draft plan 18 and this -- and this is in the first document, the main 19 plan. And if you go to page 39 there's -- there's a 20 little paragraph there entitled, Development Awareness. 21 And this is something I would encourage each of you -- 22 and I may have left out a couple of lines near the end 23 but it was just to fit it all on the screen. 24 It's something I would urge each of you to 25 read and read very carefully because, in my mind, it

1 defines what you're really after in terms of land use 2 planning. Now, not for all communities; some of your 3 communities do have experience, you know, as Chief 4 Deneron from Liard has said, they've been doing this for 5 a long time. 6 They know how to manage not only the 7 impacts of the activities, but, I've got to say they know 8 how to manage the companies themselves over there. But 9 then, you know, that varies from community to community. 10 But here again, I would say that this 11 paragraph, and this is written by the planning committee 12 itself, it really defines what the plans should be doing. 13 And, you know, the first thing is, 14 communities don't have a lot of experience with 15 development. They come from a traditional background, 16 protecting -- protecting the land is the primary 17 consideration. 18 Most people do not know anything about the 19 -- as the committee says, the -- the myriad of acts, 20 regulations, policies and guidelines that are in place to 21 guide development, but, in their words, to ensure it's 22 done safely. 23 And, you know, that's very important that 24 people get to understand that. And it's -- there's no 25 doubt, in the decades past, developers did not have a

1 good history up here. You know, a lot of times people 2 were not consulted, let alone listened to. And not a lot 3 of benefits flowed to the industry (sic). But times have 4 changed. 5 But, one point in here particular is that 6 communities need to develop a level of comfort with 7 development before they will be more receptive to it. 8 And that suggests that, in my mind, that's why you're 9 exclusion areas are so big. And as you become more and 10 more comfortable with how industry works, and that is, 11 you build up confidence that they can protect the 12 environment, you allow bigger and bigger areas. 13 And, you know, if I'm right in making that 14 assumption, the brick wall that you're going to run into 15 in the future is that you've labelled these conservation 16 zones, and you want the Government to make them legally 17 binding. 18 And many of these groups that wrote in 19 these letters of applause for your plan, the day you try 20 to shrink these areas they're going to be writing in 21 letters that say just the opposite because they're not 22 going to want to give up on those conservation areas. 23 And I only say this because this is -- 24 it's flexibility for your future generations. I mean, 25 if, for example, any of the conservation zones, if they

1 exclude development, it doesn't matter what you call 2 them, development is not allowed. 3 But in terms of how an outsider will 4 interpret that, it means a lot, for example, if you call 5 them conservation zones or if you call them, say, future 6 use zones, something like that. But -- but that's just a 7 point for you to consider, that's all, obviously. 8 The other big point is that usually in the 9 Dehcho the big word you hear is consensus, consensus, 10 consensus, consensus. We should do everything in that 11 regard. 12 And this is one of the first times that 13 I've seen where you actually have a situation where, you 14 know, we identify winners and losers. You know, we -- we 15 don't see that consensus, consensus. 16 The big winners, if this Plan as it is, if 17 -- if it's adopted, of course, and I don't mean this in a 18 negative context, I applaud them, it's the conservation 19 groups. Like I say, this will set a -- an unmatched 20 example on the globe. It's never been done this strongly 21 towards conservation, not in an area so large, so rich in 22 -- in resources and yet so poor at the economic level in 23 the communities, I mean, this is just unheard of. 24 For industry, it's -- if you look at the 25 southern-based industry, like oil companies or potential

1 future mining companies, it may inconvenience them but it 2 doesn't really hurt them in the long run because they 3 simply move their money elsewhere. 4 You know, we -- we live in a very small 5 world today and money just moves, investment flows very 6 quickly. 7 But there's another industry too, and it's 8 represented by some of the people in this room and it's 9 community-based industry. 10 You know, if you want to buy a cat or a 11 water truck or something like that, you need more than 12 the odd government contract to make that work, to pay 13 those bills. You need some kind of sustainable 14 development. 15 And, you know, as I suggested before, 16 there's only really three (3) areas you're going to get 17 that from, and that's mining, oil and gas, and forestry, 18 and, you know, for the foreseeable future. 19 Now, unfortunately, you know, at the 20 community level, I -- I find it difficult to see an 21 upside. But I say that because I understand the existing 22 regulatory regime. I know how tough it is for a company, 23 particularly a new company that wants to come into this 24 region. 25 But you know, and -- and I should say

1 Reedick (phonetic) shares this very same concern: What 2 are your future generations going to do for economic 3 opportunity if the industry has just fled to other areas? 4 You know, you will definitely get little 5 pockets, there's no doubt about that. But like I say, on 6 the mining side, you've excluded the most, or the 7 highest-potential areas, outright. 8 And now I will just quickly, I know we're 9 running out of time here, I will quickly turn to the 10 recommendations. Basically, what I'm suggesting is that 11 we bring this back more down to the community level, to 12 get them more involved. 13 And of course a lot of that means 14 education, getting people to understand. I'm not saying 15 that they have to agree or that they will agree, and I'm 16 not saying that this is easy, it's very challenging to 17 get around inside some of the communities and -- and get 18 people to take time out and look at this stuff. 19 But at least to make the effort to re- 20 engage them in a -- in a more comprehensive fashion, but 21 also to make sure the Governments and the Committee 22 better understand the individual needs of each community. 23 You know, like, you know, we've heard some communities 24 here, they want development and they want more of it, 25 others want less. Well, you know, build that in.

1 Also though, with related to how the 2 process is done, we really think that the Committee 3 should be looking more in terms of developing a workable 4 plan, something that meets the reality. It may not be 5 possible but, as we've said, we -- we don't really think 6 they're actually looking at either the long-term needs of 7 the communities or the industry in this. But obviously 8 that's just an opinion. 9 We would recommend that industry be 10 invited to sit on this, and it doesn't have to be in a 11 voting situation or anything like that, but just so the 12 Committee always has somebody there who actually comes 13 from industry. 14 And I -- and I'm sure you're -- as leaders 15 you could find somebody, some retired individual, either 16 from mining or oil and gas, somebody's who knowledgeable 17 on both sides, to do that work. But -- but just so you 18 have that information right there at all hands. 19 And lastly, I -- I would recommend that 20 all the proposed regulatory changes simply be made 21 recommendations, and not become legally binding. And I 22 don't say this to criticize what the Committee has done, 23 it's just that the science on this is not firm. And you 24 know, I know at Canadian Zinc we're been offering for 25 over a year that we're quite prepared and I know the --

1 the mining associations will, to sit down and work with 2 communities on this thing. 3 But, you know, keep your flexibility open 4 here, but don't tie yourself down too tightly. 5 And then lastly, and this is just a minor 6 thing, it's just packaging. It doesn't really have any 7 impact other than the -- in the short term as the -- 8 think about, like, what's titled conservation zones or 9 protected area strategy zones. 10 If you think as people that your future 11 generations might want to open up a portion or all of 12 those areas, you better change the titles of them right 13 now. 14 And that's all you have to do. Call them 15 a future use zone. Because I guarantee that whatever you 16 call conservation today, in the future, some of your 17 people will want to restrict those areas or reduce them 18 in size and you're going to have a very, very difficult 19 time doing that. 20 But again, you know, I -- I thank you for 21 our -- the invitation for us to participate. We wish you 22 all the best in this and we look forward, particularly 23 with the affected communities in our mine development 24 area, in working with them as we re-open this mine in the 25 next couple of years. Thank you very much.

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Dan. 2 Again, it's almost twelve o'clock, so let's have a couple 3 of quick questions and we can continue after lunch. 4 Petr Cizek, and then followed by Bill 5 Carpenter. 6 Petr...? 7 8 QUESTION PERIOD: 9 MR. PETR CIZEK: Thanks, Dan. I'm just 10 wondering, in presenting your doom-and-gloom scenario 11 where there won't be work available for anybody in -- in 12 this because of this Land Use Plan. 13 I'm wondering if you've had a chance to 14 review, starting on page 182 of the background report, 15 the -- the economic development assessment that we did, 16 not only of this revised draft, but of the current land 17 withdrawals as well as a full development scenario. 18 Where we basically indicate that, based 19 on the revised draft, there will be lots of work for 20 everybody, and under the full development scenario, that 21 that would basically create so much employment that there 22 would be lots of people moving into the Dehcho as a 23 result, causing tremendous growth in the communities. 24 And if you have had a chance to look at 25 this economic development assessment, I'm wondering what

1 you think of it? 2 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yes, I have had a 3 chance to look at it. The assumptions in terms of the 4 rate of development, I don't really think they're 5 realistic and again, I use what's behind me on the 6 screen; this is a case study. 7 This property was discovered back in the 8 1930's. What you see was built in the early 1980's. We 9 still haven't started production. 10 So, you know, to get -- say to get five 11 (5) mines going, if you just use Canadian Zinc as an 12 example, I don't know how many hundreds of years does 13 that come out to? 14 It's -- you know, there's no certainty in 15 the process, and this is important for leaders to 16 understand because, you know, and some of you know better 17 than others, our greatest difficulties have occurred in 18 the last few years, when the market is now ripe, but it 19 also shows how tough the regulatory process is. 20 But one (1) other thing about -- that 21 isn't in the model, but it's in the plan, and that's 22 transportation. And you know transportation, and in 23 particular roads, it's kind of not totally, but it's kind 24 of like we got a dirty association. 25 And yet, you know, there's two (2) things

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1 that are in common between, say, hunting, trapping and 2 then on the other side, oil and gas and mining. 3 The first is obvious; we're all after 4 natural resources. We're all looking to harvest that. 5 But the second thing is transportation. 6 You can -- you can't hunt or trap unless 7 you have transportation, whether you're walking, you're 8 driving a skidoo, you're driving a truck with a skidoo in 9 the back to your area, you're in a boat, whatever, you 10 have to have transportation. Mining, oil and gas, you 11 have to have some kind of transportation, otherwise 12 what's the value of doing it? 13 You have to be able to supply the process, 14 where -- you know, the mine area and you have to be able 15 to truck it out at the end or -- in oil and gas, pipeline 16 to -- and yet I don't see the plan giving any recognition 17 to that at all. 18 It's like -- and this is why industry, 19 they talk about these islands of development and that's 20 why they're worried about them because they are islands. 21 But it's -- it's like if the Government 22 came in tomorrow and said to all your trappers, well you 23 can trap in this area or this area, but in terms of 24 accessing that trapline, well, if you're there already 25 it's all right, but if you're not there already and you

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1 have to travel there, we're going to give you a hard 2 time. 3 And -- and you know, that obviously that 4 wouldn't be fair to trappers or hunters, and that's not 5 fair to miners or people looking after oil and gas. And 6 this gets back to what David Livingstone I guess was 7 talking about yesterday. Think more in terms of what 8 values you want to protect. 9 But -- but anyway, my -- my point there, 10 Petr, is I didn't see any mention of that connection or 11 the importance of the transportation leg, either in the 12 economic modelling or in the plan in general. And you 13 know, that's -- that's a big hole. 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, it's almost lunch 18 time. I've got some names, I'll put them down. Marie 19 Lafferty, Bill, maybe you can go ahead, and followed by 20 that, Bill will be the last speaker and then we'll break 21 for lunch, okay. And then we'll continue at one o'clock. 22 So, Bill...? 23 MR. WILLIAM CARPENTER: Okay, I'm on. 24 Sir, you made some incredibly misleading statements there 25 in referring to the environmental organizations, their

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1 missions in life is to stop all development, and the same 2 groups will not want to give up on conservation zones if 3 they were being reviewed. 4 I'm the Conservation Director for the 5 World Wildlife Fund in the Northwest Territories. We've 6 been active in the north for over forty (40) years, and 7 we are a participant funding partner in the Protected 8 Area Strategy, where we provide financial, administrative 9 and technical support to the First Nation communities, 10 under the protected area strategy work. 11 We are not against all development, we are 12 not against the pipeline, we are not against many 13 developments, but that misleading statement is the one 14 (1) that sort of puts up the red flag about environmental 15 organizations. 16 The work that we do with communities here 17 in the area of conservation and conservation zones and 18 discussions at the community level, these sites are all 19 identified by local communities. It's a community-driven 20 process. These aren't our sites or sites that we would 21 be not wanting to give up on. 22 These are sites that the communities are 23 advancing. Some of them have been advanced as 24 conservation zones under the land use plan, which means 25 they can be adjusted and changed every five (5) years if

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1 there was a review or a need to. 2 Some areas are being advanced by some 3 communities, I can say that the Edehzhie or Horn Plateau 4 Site has involved four (4) Dehcho communities, and we've 5 funded most of that work over the last five (5) years, 6 and the final boundaries to that site aren't final, or 7 aren't completed yet. 8 We're working also with Trout Lake, and 9 with Kakisa, where areas have not been finalized for 10 boundaries. But they are trying to advance some of their 11 conservation zones to be protected area zones so that 12 they can be permanently protected. 13 So while just as there is a need for 14 development, which we are not against, there's also a 15 need for some areas to be permanently protected. 16 So I'd just like to correct that very, 17 very misleading and provocative statement you've made. 18 And by the way, the Dehcho First Nations are also 19 signatory to the Canadian Boreal Framework as well. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. 21 Dan...? 22 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Thank you very much 23 for that comment. 24 I would ask you the question then, and 25 it's good that you're here at the table and I see

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1 Jennifer there with CPAWS. 2 Let's just say tomorrow morning all the 3 leaders here and the elders woke up and they said, well, 4 we've decided we want to cut in half the size of all the 5 conservation zones that we now want and the size of all 6 the protected areas under the protected area strategy. 7 Can I assume then that the WWF would write 8 a letter into the planning committee saying that we 9 support the Chiefs and the elders in their decision? 10 MR. WILLIAM CARPENTER: First of all, the 11 protected areas would be protected by legislation, those 12 are the sites that the community have selected and chosen 13 and identified that they do want permanently protected. 14 And, well, yes, under democracy anything can be finally 15 changed. 16 As far as the conservation zones, none of 17 those zones are finalized at this point, and if we were 18 now at the stage where they had been in place for five 19 (5) years and there was valid reasons that communities 20 wanted to make changes or adjust the boundaries to them, 21 that's not simply an automatic that we would be writing 22 in letters opposing that. 23 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: As long as you agree 24 that they're valid reasons. 25 MR. WILLIAM CARPENTER: The values that

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1 have been used to date and that will be used in 2 continuing to illustrate why certain areas should be 3 identified as either conservation zones or -- or 4 protected areas, there's a great deal of effort gone into 5 that work and continues to go into it by the communities 6 to identify the values as to why these areas are being 7 put forth as conservation zones or protected areas; in 8 other words, the values are being identified and can be 9 defended. 10 If there was some reason, if there was an 11 area that, for example, had significant habitat for one 12 (1) certain species, but that changed because of changing 13 habitat or climate change, of course, there's reasons 14 that we would support boundary changes. 15 But that was an incredibly provocative 16 statement you made by saying that their mission in life 17 is to stop all development. I think you should retract 18 that. 19 MR. DAN O'ROURE: Thank you very much. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, great, thanks. 21 What we'll do is we will continue this discussion. I'm 22 told that we should have a quick break, one o'clock, 23 let's break for lunch and then come back and we'll put 24 Dan back on the hot seat again. Okay, Dan? 25 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Ola.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right on. Okay, one 2 o'clock. Have a good lunch. 3 4 --- Upon recessing at 12:05 p.m. 5 --- Upon resuming at 1:30 p.m. 6 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, could we have 8 people come back to the table and maybe have Dan O'Rourke 9 back at microphone 17, so we can get moving. 10 The next speakers would be Jonas Antoine, 11 Ria Letcher and a couple other people afterwards. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, if we can get 16 back to the -- our tables please, so can people -- so 17 people can get the meeting going please? 18 Again, this afternoon, where we left off 19 was Jonas Antoine was going to get into his brief Q and 20 A, followed by Ria, Roy Fabian and Marie Lafferty. 21 The next presenters would be -- would be 22 the NGO presentation and followed by that would be 23 Canadian Zinc (sic). So could we have Jonas Antoine back 24 to the microphone please, so we could get going. 25 Jonas...?

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1 2 (BRIEF PAUSE) 3 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Before we get going 5 here, for all of you, we have a new man that just come 6 into the house here, our new Western Arctic MP, Dennis 7 Bevington, let's give him a hand there, guys. 8 9 (BRIEF PAUSE) 10 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right on there, Dennis. 12 Okay, Dan and Jonas? Thank you. 13 14 (BRIEF PAUSE) 15 16 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: This morning when Mr. 17 O'Rourke spoke, it kind of got me a little mad. Well 18 first of all, I've never heard Mr. O'Rourke speak before, 19 or try to make friends, because my interpretation of what 20 -- of what he said was he called me a poor dumb Indian. 21 And I resent that, because what we represent here is the 22 honour of the Dene people. The history of our people. 23 That is what we represent here. 24 Sure, we may be poor, but it's in somebody 25 else's eyes that we look poor, to us we are rich. We may

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1 not have money, which make other people rich, but we have 2 other things that makes us rich. 3 You know, about a year ago riding Fort 4 Simpson area, within three (3) kilometres of Fort Simpson 5 area I was up a very, very pristine, clean river, creek, 6 and I stopped and built a fire on the gravel bar and made 7 myself a pot of tea, and I enjoyed that beauty, that was 8 my -- my riches right there. 9 The next day I was on a plane to one (1) 10 of the southern cities, and as we were approaching the 11 city I looked down below, and as far as I can see there 12 was not an unoccupied space out there around the City. 13 And I thought to myself, if I tried to do what I did in 14 my country the day before, I'd be arrested for doing 15 that. 16 And the following day I was down in the -- 17 in the jungle, concrete jungle, and I start thinking 18 about back home, and I thought, you know, this used to be 19 like the very spot that I camped the day before, two 20 hundred (200) years ago, you know, that's called 21 development, you know. 22 Maybe a thousand (1,000) years from now we 23 might have areas like that up here, but if we can help it 24 right now, we would like to keep our country as pristine 25 as possible.

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1 It's a pity that we have to put up with 2 things like this, and be put down, and I don't like it, 3 you know. We've been putting up with these things for 4 over two hundred (200) years and we're still here. And 5 finally we've come to the point where we are willing to 6 share what we have, and it's not good enough yet, you 7 know. 8 I think what we have here is very 9 generous, you know. There's talk about reducing the size 10 of conservation zones in exchange for what; because we've 11 already given up that much to this point. 12 We can talk about these things here as 13 we're doing right now for -- for a long, long time, but 14 we're not going to resolve anything. I think what we're 15 going to have to do is have people like Mr. O'Rourke here 16 really listen, and make sure that you understand where 17 we're coming from, you know. If you want to make 18 friends, you don't put them down, you praise them. 19 And I think that there are -- you're going 20 to hear from other people, probably on the same thing. 21 So, thank you. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Jonas. 23 Dan, and then followed by that, Ria. 24 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yeah, now thank you 25 very much for those comments, Jonas, although I've got to

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1 say, I don't know how you could possibly perceive 2 anything that I said as being negative against the First 3 Nations? 4 You know, we -- we have an office in Fort 5 Simpson, which Rita runs. Everyday she's there we have 6 people coming in looking for work. It seems that 7 whenever Canadian Zinc is in the news, we get more people 8 coming looking for work. That's one (1) thing. I mean, 9 we see this first hand. 10 Secondly, you know, more and more people 11 in the Dehcho are turning to the southern style, 12 lifestyle, and you know, you need money to do that, you 13 need to have a job and I'm not suggesting in any way, 14 and you know, frankly, I just don't understand that how I 15 might be saying poor dumb Indians. 16 It's that the communities, from an 17 economic standpoint, for those people that want to make 18 that transition, they are poor in opportunities, and yet 19 this is a region that is so large and so rich. 20 And you know, the size of the conservation 21 zones, that's a matter for you to decide as leaders, in 22 terms of what you approve and put forward. All I would 23 ask is that you consider the trade off that you may be 24 making by the size, relative to the amount of 25 opportunities that that may result in, number 1.

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1 And number 2, that in certain industries, 2 in particular mining, the area with the greatest chance 3 of providing a sustainable development, is being 4 excluded. But what you do as leaders, that's your 5 business. I just wanted to make sure that you understood 6 that there's a -- that has the potential of greatly 7 reducing those opportunities for your people. 8 Now about keeping the land pristine, we 9 agree with that a 100 percent. And you know, I think I 10 said when I -- when I showed that first slide of the -- 11 the governing parameters from the IMA that set up this 12 planning process. And in particular, with the point 13 about promoting the social, economic and cultural well 14 being. 15 I don't think a company should be allowed 16 in the North unless they're willing to do that anyway, 17 and in particular in the Dehcho. 18 But you know, obviously I apologize to 19 everybody if anybody miscon -- misconstrued my remarks, 20 but I certainly didn't mean what you suggested. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Dan. 22 Ria...? Ria Letcher...? 23 MS. RIA LETCHER: And myself, like many 24 others around the table, feel very offended by some of 25 the things that you have said, and as is expected that

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1 you would be a big critic of the Dehcho land use plan. 2 And I would like to point out that the Dehcho land use 3 plan is a plan that belongs to the people, and it is 4 being built from the ground up. This is something that 5 the people are in control of. 6 And I'm also very offended that you 7 suggest that we transition from a traditional lifestyle 8 to a southern wage economy. The whole idea behind this 9 plan is that we do not follow the example of our southern 10 neighbours. They have developed the land to where Jonas 11 has said, you cannot fly over an area and not see any 12 pristine areas. So that to us does not sit well. 13 And to the fact that our only hope at any 14 economic development is through industry, that too is 15 very hard to swallow. What about tourism, what about 16 tradition -- continued traditional land use, small 17 business entrepreneurs, you're disregarding all these 18 very valid things in your presentation, and I just cannot 19 sit here and listen to it. Mahsi. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Ria. 21 Dan, and then followed by that will be Roy Fabian and 22 then Marie Lafferty. 23 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yeah. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Dan...? 25 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: And, Ria, I apologize

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1 to you if that's the way you interpret it. But I didn't 2 say that the people had to transition, I simply 3 recognized the fact that that was occurring. And if your 4 people continue to make that transition that, you know, 5 they're going to need opportunities to actually be 6 successful in that. 7 But what -- what your people decide to do 8 is their business and their business only, and I, you 9 know, it's none of my business to suggest which way they 10 go. But if they do decide to go to the economy, you 11 know, the southern style economy base, then they're going 12 to need opportunities to be successful. 13 Did I suggest that you do something 14 directly in that regard; no. Just you consider that when 15 you make the decisions you're making vis-a-vis this plan, 16 that you just keep that in mind. 17 But in the end it's up to you as leaders 18 and your people and communities to decide what you're 19 doing, and it's nobody's business but your own, in terms 20 of what you do. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Roy Fabian...? 22 Roy, and then Marie Lafferty. 23 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Yeah, I guess the 24 first thing I want to do is I just want to, you know, 25 welcome the new MP for the Northwest Territories, he just

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1 came in, Dennis Bevington, is in the back there, and I 2 want to welcome him here. 3 You know, listening to you and, you know, 4 like you've been in the north quite a -- quite a long 5 time and, you know, I've worked with you in the past and, 6 you know, I -- like, I -- I, you know, like, I guess 7 maybe there's a reason you're not working for Indian 8 Affairs anymore. 9 But, you know, and I can see just based on 10 your comments why you're not working for them, you know, 11 because I wouldn't want, you know, if I was Indian 12 Affairs I wouldn't want to have someone like you 13 representing us, the way you talk. 14 Like for me I found your whole 15 presentation demeaning to us as Dene people, just like we 16 don't know nothing. You know, and you were saying we 17 don't know the regulatory, you know, processes. My God, 18 we've been dealing with those processes for years. 19 And -- and for you to insinuate that our 20 people, you know, don't have the -- you know, the 21 capacity to be able to deal with those issues, I'll show 22 you how we deal with it. There are peoples working for 23 me in my Band office that are all Dene Band members, I 24 have only two (2) non-Band -- or three (3) non-Band 25 members working in the whole Band office.

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1 I have, you know, and these young people 2 are dealing with the day to day regulatory, you know, 3 processes that you are referring to. And, you know, and 4 the thing for me is that, you know, Prairie Creek Mine 5 and its history and the way it's been dealing with us as 6 Aboriginal people is the very reason we came up with this 7 land use plan. 8 Now, like take a look at it, you know, 9 Dan, you know, take a look at what you guys have done 10 there, or what Prairie Creek Mining represents to us. 11 You know, you -- you've got contaminants galore there and 12 you're not willing to deal with that. 13 You -- you have, you know, cyanide and 14 some of the most dangerous chemicals there and Prairie 15 Creek Mines is trying to use that as an excuse to build a 16 road into -- into, you know, into the mine. Saying, well 17 that's the only way we can -- we can haul it out, we can 18 get rid of the, you know, the contaminants, is by 19 building a mine -- or building a road to the mine. And 20 that's just going to open it up for you even more to 21 develop. 22 And, you know, and that -- and for me, to 23 show that picture to us, it's an insult. And too, 24 because that's the very reason why we're working on the 25 land use plan that's going to make sure that that kind of

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1 a thing never happens again on our land. 2 And you're right, because of -- of some, 3 you know, you -- you discovered that thing way back, I 4 don't whether I remember what year you said. But, you 5 know, like that's the reason why we're -- we want the 6 land use plan, so that that kind of garbage doesn't 7 happen up here. 8 And, you know, and for me, I -- I, you 9 know, like I am offended by your presentation. You know, 10 you've lived in the north and you say you've worked in 11 the north for the long time. 12 And, you know, I've worked with you 13 before, you know, and I know your attitude. And I know, 14 you know, how pro-development you are, and you're trying 15 to get us to go to that table. And I -- I did, I worked 16 with you and I went to that table with you, but in the -- 17 in the end, all we did was we just okayed for, you know, 18 a non-Dene, you know, business to just gain more money 19 and all we got was nothing out of it. That's the deal 20 you made for us, Dan, you remember that. 21 You know, like last year, when we -- when 22 we -- you got us into a joint venture where we got 23 nothing out of it. You know, maybe we got a few little 24 jobs and a little bit of training and that's -- that's 25 about it. And that's -- that's the way you operate.

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1 And so for -- for me to listen to you, 2 sitting here and listening to what you have to say is, 3 you know, like I find it demeaning, I find it full of -- 4 I'm not sure what the right word is, but just putting us 5 down, us Dene people. 6 You know, generally, like -- and -- and 7 you know, I thought all that stuff went out the window 8 years ago. You know, I thought that, you know, like even 9 Indian Affairs, no matter how much I might disagree with 10 it, have respect for us and never demean us. 11 And basically your presentation was 12 demeaning. And maybe you don't understand that, Dan, I 13 don't know. Somehow I get a feeling that you don't know 14 what you just did, and that to me is a big problem, you 15 know. 16 And like for me, last year, you know, like 17 at this very session we were having last year, I 18 questioned you about, well, you know, you're -- you know, 19 about, you know, you're going ahead with a project and 20 there's a community nearby that is opposed to it, and how 21 come you're not working with them and all this stuff. 22 And at that time, you know, you came up with a -- an 23 answer that said, Well we're in Court with them, we can't 24 say nothing. 25 And -- and you're not working with that

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1 community, and that's what I'm hearing. And yet today 2 you come here and you tell us you're the one that's 3 advising us on how we should move forward? You know, 4 it's people with your kind of attitude that's taking away 5 our language and our culture, and as Dene people we lost 6 our autonomy. 7 And today we're struggling to regain it, 8 and we're hoping that something like this land use plan 9 will give us some autonomy. Like I talked to the 10 Department of Indian Affairs yesterday and said, Look, we 11 need to rebuild our independence and -- and this is what 12 we hope this plan is going to help us do. 13 But for us to just completely abandon our 14 ways, you know, and for me, you know, I refuse to do 15 that. You know, I've done it, you know, I've taught my 16 children to read, they all -- they're -- I've got three 17 (3) highschool graduate children and they're all making 18 it in your western society. 19 You know what, I didn't do my job as a 20 father, teaching them to be Dene people. No, because I 21 valued what you're saying, you know, I listened to people 22 like you and I went forward and I pushed my children that 23 way, now I regret that I did that. 24 And so, you know, like don't pretend that 25 you know where we need to go, because you don't. And

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1 your job here is to get that Prairie Creek Mine going no 2 matter what, that's what you're getting paid for. That's 3 why you're here, no other reason. 4 When you made that mine it was somewhere 5 in Alberta, that's where you'll be. If that mine was in 6 Ontario, that's where you would be. And that's an 7 opportunity for you. 8 But for us, that Prairie Creek Mine is, 9 like I said, the prime example why we need a land use 10 plan, so that that kind of thing never happens on our 11 land again, and that if the regulatory reviews are so 12 strict, why did that take place, and why is it continual, 13 why is it continuing to, you know, the -- you know, the 14 contaminants are still there and they've been there for 15 thirty (30) years. 16 Why is that happening if the regulatory 17 reviews, and you know, are so restricted that -- that you 18 know, you can't do anything? Well, Jesus, here's an 19 example of what that regulatory review can do to us and 20 our land. 21 So don't tell me that we don't know what 22 we're doing here. You know, and -- and for you to infer 23 that our people didn't participate in this process, I'll 24 guarantee you we have, you know, like in this land use 25 plan we had our elders coming, we had people coming to

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1 raise their issues, they wanted certain things done. 2 And for you to infer that our people don't 3 know what they're doing is, you know, like don't do that 4 Dan, don't talk for, you know, about something you don't 5 understand what you're talking about. 6 But one thing for me for sure, is that you 7 know like, I try to respect people Dan, you know, I tried 8 to respect you by working with you. You know, with a 9 company that -- that has no respect for me and my 10 Aboriginal rights. And I tried to work with you trying 11 to get those people, but it didn't work. 12 And -- and for me, I try certain things, 13 I'll do anything to try to gain some of the work that 14 you're talking about. But in the end, the work that we 15 did together last year was, you know, we endorsed a 16 community that, you know, did a little bit of training 17 and in the end we end up with very little. There was no 18 benefit in it for me as a First Nation. 19 You know, and now we -- we're dealing with 20 another company, and I guarantee you, we're going to make 21 money at the end, there's going to be a cheque handed to 22 us, and, yes, our people are going to be -- are already 23 up there working for, you know, and getting trained and 24 stuff like that. 25 And yet, when I worked with you, if -- if

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1 my history of working with you is an example of how 2 things are going to be, Dan, don't bother coming to talk 3 to me, because I know what it's going to be like. You 4 know, that I know what it's going to be like. 5 So, no, I don't know what else to say. 6 Like I don't expect a response, because I already know 7 what the response is going to be, it's going to be full 8 of denial and stuff like that, and for me, I'm just not - 9 - so don't bother. Sorry, that's all I wanted to say. 10 Mahsi. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Roy. 12 Dan...? 13 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yeah. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: And then Marie 15 Lafferty. 16 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yeah, the response I'm 17 going to make is I'm simply going to restate what I said 18 and how I said it, and that is, if you remember, about 19 the fact that you don't understand the existing 20 regulatory regime. 21 Remember I brought this up, and if you 22 read the second sentence, the average person is not 23 familiar with the day to day operations of the myriad of 24 acts, regulations, policies and guidelines that are in 25 place to guide development and ensure it is done safely.

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1 I didn't write that, that's in the draft land use plan. 2 And I also said with respect to this, and 3 in particular the first sentence as well, that that 4 varies from community to community. And those 5 communities that have had more experience and exposure, 6 they understand it better. But that there are other 7 communities that don't understand. 8 With respect to the level of 9 participation, I was sitting here last year, that is the 10 participation of communities, and I heard leaders say 11 that they were concerned with the amount of public 12 participation in their communities. 13 And it's not -- as I remember, I think 14 somebody said there's no magic answer for it, but they 15 wanted to see greater effort to help the people get more 16 involved in this process. 17 About being pro-development, of course I'm 18 pro development but in the Dehcho I'm pro-choice. It's - 19 - and I mean just in the sense, you know -- you know, I 20 understand, Chief, we -- we may not agree on a lot of 21 things, but I think we all agree that -- because in the 22 South people demand this -- as your young people grow up, 23 that they be afforded choices in their life. 24 And, but again, as I say, nobody has the 25 right to tell you how to live your lives or how your

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1 people do. It's just that all we're making comments on 2 is what we know. It's not your lifestyle, it's industry, 3 and in terms of what makes industry grow and what makes 4 it contract or what makes it move from one area to the 5 other. And that's only -- that's the only type of 6 information we're providing. And it's solely to help 7 you, as leaders, make decisions about how you want to do 8 it. 9 But if you want to make the whole region a 10 conservation zone, that's your business. You work that 11 out with the Government. 12 Now, with respect to the mine, there are 13 not contaminants laying around all over the place. Yes, 14 there is cyanide, there's forty (40) tons of it there, 15 it's on a clay-engineered berm. It's about three -- at 16 least three hundred (300) yards back from the creek at an 17 elevation of at least a hundred (100) feet high. 18 We've been trying to get that stuff out of 19 there now for three (3) years. The safest way to move 20 it, the scientists tell us, is by truck. It's not that 21 we require -- you know, we're doing this just to get a 22 winter road. I mean, you need a road access to a mine 23 site anyway. 24 If -- if you look at the picture that I 25 have there, and one of the reasons I -- I thought people

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1 might be interested in what's going on at the mine as 2 well, you see the tailings pond there, that was never 3 used, and it never will be used. 4 We have no intention of using that when we 5 put the mine back in operation. We're going to do what 6 was originally proposed and that is mix the tailings with 7 concrete and put them back underground. 8 And why are we going to that effort and 9 expense to do that? Because we've listened to people in 10 the communities. And why are we trying to get the 11 cyanide out of there so fast? Because people in the 12 communities told us they're afraid of it being there. 13 So -- but you know, Chief, I understand 14 that it's -- it's easy -- with the things that I have 15 said -- that they can be misconstrued but they were in no 16 way meant to be negative towards the First Nations. It's 17 just that if you're going to try to integrate development 18 into conservation, you should understand how developers 19 react, how companies, you know, the bigger companies that 20 invest in different places. 21 Now, what you do with that information, 22 that's your business and your business alone. And I 23 would never suggest that we have any right to -- to 24 direct or nudge you in any particular direction. This is 25 in the South.

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1 If this -- if this was down south I would 2 expect the Land Use Plan that had maybe 10 percent 3 conservation areas, but this is the North and this is the 4 Dehcho. You don't have a -- the Dehcho process is not 5 completed yet, and I think I made that point this 6 morning. Therefore, we expect bigger areas. 7 My only point was how you label those to 8 maintain flexibility for down the road, you know, and 9 that's it. But in terms of how many you want to do, how 10 big you want to make them, that's your business, not 11 ours. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Dan. 13 Marie Lafferty...? 14 15 (BRIEF PAUSE) 16 17 MS. MARIE LAFFERTY: I just wanted to 18 remind everybody again about those forty (40) tons of 19 cyanide that are sitting up there in the Nahanni. You 20 know, I've mentioned this many times at assemblies and 21 other meetings and to different government people, and it 22 seems like nobody is listening. 23 And we have that time bomb sitting there. 24 If ever there was an -- an earthquake or a major slide in 25 there, that cyanide would be going into that river

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1 stream, and the valley would go, once it made its way 2 right through. 3 Now, we've got CPAWS here, we've got Parks 4 Canada, we've got the Federal Government, we've got 5 Territorial Government, we've got Wildlife people sitting 6 here, the Mines, the Chiefs, BFM, now why can't we do 7 something about it? 8 In this day and age people are going to 9 the moon, for crying out loud, and we can't remove that 10 poison from that area. What's the sense of talking about 11 protecting our land when that major -- that cyanide, 40 12 tons, is sitting up there in the Nahanni, you know. 13 Sometimes I don't sleep very well, because 14 I think about that. It's -- it's sitting there for 15 twenty-five (25) years now. And surely to goodness we 16 could put our heads together and get that stuff out of 17 there, because that's -- we shouldn't leave it sit there 18 all this time, we're just waiting for an accident to 19 happen, and once it happens, it's too damn late, we've 20 lost our land and our lives too probably. Mahsi cho. 21 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yeah, and I'd like to 22 just echo that, we want that stuff out of there just as 23 badly as what Marie was saying. We have no use for it. 24 The previous owners, the -- when Cadillac was first 25 built, they were going to use it.

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1 We have absolutely no use for it or any 2 other toxic material, and if it had been left up to us it 3 would have been gone two (2) years ago. But the minute 4 we can get that out of there, it's gone. 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any other comments, 9 questions? 10 Jonas Antoine, Liidli Kue First 11 Nations...? 12 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: Yes, thank you. Dan, 13 I thought you were going to talk about Canadian Zinc? 14 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Would -- would you 15 like me to? 16 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: Well, one (1) of the 17 things -- 18 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: I'd love to. 19 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: -- yeah. With 20 regards to Canadian Zinc itself, one (1) of the questions 21 I'd like to ask you is that: The picture that you see up 22 there, it looks like a beautiful picture, but I would 23 like to know exactly what condition all that property is 24 in? 25 For example, those buildings have been

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1 abandoned for years now, and I've heard someone say that 2 80 percent of what you see is all deteriorated. 3 Also, you have equipment inside the mines 4 which fills up with water and ice every year for the past 5 twenty-five (25) years now, so I would assume that all 6 that equipment is all shot. And what condition is your 7 mill in, and what would it take in dollars and cents, to 8 repair all that, or replace all that? 9 The second question is: What are the 10 shares worth right now? Because as we speak here, 11 whenever we start talking about land use planning their 12 shares seem to go up a few cents. Thank you. 13 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: Yeah, well thank you 14 very much. 15 First of all, if you look at the -- oh, 16 just a minute. Yeah, with respect to what's still good 17 at the mine and what isn't, just -- just to review for 18 you, this -- these are obviously the camp trailers here. 19 And this set of trailers, they're fine; just very minor 20 refurbishment and they're back in business. These two 21 (2) lines of trailers, they're a write-off; they didn't - 22 - they didn't survive the time, they're going to have to 23 be replaced. 24 And what Allan Taylor, he's our VP of 25 Exploration, and our Chief Operating Officer, what he's

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1 thinking about now is rather than stretching out a new 2 camp like that, we do something similar to what you may 3 or may not have seen on offshore drilling platforms, 4 where the -- the trailers are stacked up a bit, so it's 5 less use of the land, per se. So these have to be 6 replaced. 7 This is the main warehouse and 8 administration building. It -- it looks like brand new 9 when you go inside, you know, nothing wrong with that at 10 all. 11 This is the -- the kitchen, eating area 12 here, and it's -- it's comprised of I think about six (6) 13 trailers, and it's pretty well a write off as well. That 14 has to be replaced. 15 These are garages, this just needs some 16 exterior siding put on it right here, but otherwise, 17 they're just fine, no problem at all. 18 The -- the tank farm down here, we had 19 that tested last year. With some minor repairs, and the 20 Mackenzie Valley Land and Water Board has approved this, 21 we had an inspection done and they said with some very 22 minor repairs we can very safely refill and use them. 23 That isn't a problem. 24 Here's the Mill Building. If you go -- if 25 you go inside it's like going into a ghost town. It's --

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1 the concrete work and the steel, except for some dust, it 2 looks like it was just put there yesterday. 3 And, you know, and I should say, while 4 I've got the opportunity, we'd like to invite the 5 leadership into the mine this summer to see this for 6 themselves. You know, don't take our word, come and see 7 it. 8 But there's very little work that has to 9 be done in there. It was about 95 percent complete when 10 it was -- when the company went bankrupt. And it's -- 11 there's the conveyer system right here from the -- the 12 lower level. 13 Underground, yeah, we did have a problem 14 during the -- and obviously I wasn't there, but during 15 the 90's, the earlier 2000's when I was, like you say, 16 you know, with the rain and the snow, it filled up 17 underground. And two (2) years ago, when we went back 18 into the property, it was like a big ice plug at the 19 lower level. 20 But remember, we -- at the lowest level, 21 you enter the mine right here, everything is horizontal. 22 Okay. We have 3 levels of underground works, it's a 23 total of about 6 kilometres which stretches over about a 24 -- a kilometre and a half underground. But -- but that's 25 all cleaned out.

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1 And last year, before we shut the mine 2 down -- well, actually, the year before, before we shut 3 the mine down, we tried to seal every place we could find 4 on the mountain where water could get down into the 5 system. 6 You know, we have that escape tunnel at 7 the top and some other areas as well. And last year 8 there was hardly any ice at all built up. But also last 9 year we had Procon in there refurbishing all the 10 underground stuff. 11 And, you know, if any of you ever seen any 12 old cowboy movies, they show these old gold mines with, 13 you know, the -- the wooden timbers at the front and 14 they're all fallen down at the entrance of these mines, 15 that's what it looked like at this lower level and at the 16 second level back up around the -- the mountain there. 17 But now that's all been replaced with 18 steel, steel girders and proper netting and all that. 19 In terms of costs, to put everything back 20 on production -- oh yeah, one other thing in the mill. 21 There's three (3) old diesel generators in there for 22 generating electricity, two (2) of them were never turned 23 on, but they consume too much diesel. You know, we'd 24 have to keep filling these things more often. 25 And besides, we can replace those three

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1 (3) with one (1) unit today that burns just a fraction of 2 that fuel. And of course that means fewer truckloads of 3 fuel coming in. Because that is the main consumption of 4 it. 5 You also see from the pictures we've got 6 lots of equipment around and, yeah, it's old but, you 7 know, it's dry in there. And the heavy equipment, you 8 know, whether it's the CAT's, the front-end loaders, the 9 graders, you know, they're old but they don't have a lot 10 of hours on them. 11 The equipment that does have a problem is, 12 we've got some, you know, like a fleet of half-ton 13 trucks, you know, just for getting around the property, 14 they're going to have to be replaced. Some of the 15 underground vehicles, like the locomotives and some of 16 the ore cars will have to be replaced, but otherwise 17 we're pretty well ready to go. 18 Now, in terms of costs, I -- I can't -- my 19 -- I can't tell you precisely what it's going to cost to 20 put the mill back in. What I can tell you is that the 21 total cost of -- of turning the mine back on, which would 22 include a construction of a year-round acc -- road -- 23 access road, excuse me, would be somewhere in the 24 neighbourhood of 60 million. 25 And I say neighbourhood because we

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1 originally thought maybe you could build that road for 30 2 million, but that's just not realistic. It's going to be 3 a lot more than that. But obviously, the major 4 investment is just the -- it's just that road, if we go 5 that route. 6 As you've probably been told, we've -- 7 we've already started working with government and we want 8 to work with the effected First Nations in terms of 9 preparing our development application, which we intend to 10 submit in March, April or May at the very latest. 11 And in that application we're going to be 12 applying to reopen this mine the same way it was 13 permitted originally. And that -- that is it will be a 14 seasonable operation. We'll utilize the winter road 15 until we get an application in to build the winter road - 16 - or to build a year-round road, excuse me, which would 17 probably be within the -- within the year or so. 18 And, you know, as we've told Government, 19 since we are -- plan to reopen it the same way that it 20 was originally permitted, we believe that it'll be 21 subject to the grandfathering clause, which means it 22 doesn't have to go through a second EA. 23 Now when we apply to build the year round 24 road though, that's a different matter entirely, and that 25 will require a full EA, as is required by law, because

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1 that's never been applied or permitted before. 2 As for share price, I don't know what the 3 price is this week, last week it closed at a buck ten 4 (10). Before Christmas it was about -- and I know, 5 Chuck, you follow this quite closely, Chuck White, it was 6 somewhere between sixty (60) and seventy (70) cents. 7 But you know, a lot of things happened 8 over the holidays, the Court case came out on the -- the 9 water license judicial review, and that was ruled in our 10 favour. Also the environmental assessment was completed 11 on our drilling amendment, that's an exploration drilling 12 program. 13 Also we were -- we've -- we had a new 14 share placement, where we raised about roughly another 15 $10 million, which was added to the property. One thing 16 I should point out though, Jonas -- Jonas, excuse me, 17 while the -- while the pictures back up here. You know, 18 and I mentioned this a minute ago. You see the tailings 19 pond, that's what it was built for, you know, mines 20 typically just put the excess from the mill in that. 21 That was never used, because the mill was never actually 22 turned on, okay. 23 Canadian Zinc has no intention of using it 24 either. We intend to take the tailings that are left 25 from the milling process, and milling is basically you

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1 mine the rock from underground and you just crush it down 2 to just so it's like flour, you know, like you make bread 3 with, and then you run it through a -- like a filtration 4 process with bubbles. 5 It's just like detergent. They're 6 chemical detergents, but non-toxic. And the -- the zinc 7 concentrate is attracted to one (1) type of detergent and 8 the lead concentrate to another. 9 And it's just like the foam you see on the 10 shores of rivers and lakes. Sometimes it's a little 11 dusty from the dirt on the ground, and then we have an 12 arm that's just off. It's concentrated in the tank, and 13 then it goes through -- we've got two (2) driers inside 14 the mill, they're about a million dollars a piece, still 15 wrapped in the plastic when they were shipped, and they 16 take the moisture content down to about 16 percent, 16 to 17 18 percent, and it's then loaded in a truck, and we keep 18 a certain amount of moisture so it doesn't blow out, you 19 know, you don't get the dust, and then it's trucked out 20 to the south. 21 Now, the next step, and this is probably 22 what people don't understand, you know, they may not have 23 been told, is that we have no intention of applying for 24 at any time ever, to smelt or refine the concentrate. 25 And from an environmental standpoint, that's the most

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1 dangerous aspect of mining. 2 You know, this is not clean ore that -- 3 that we're going to be producing out of the concentrate. 4 There is -- there are some dead -- deadly elements within 5 the ore; there's mercury in it, there's some cyanide and 6 a couple of other items that -- which are just as deadly. 7 But the thing is, they are -- as the 8 scientists say, they're locked in the matrix of the rock, 9 and they can only be released into the environment when 10 they're subjected to very high temperatures. And by high 11 I mean four 4 to 6,000 degrees Celsius. And that's only 12 done at a smelter. 13 So you know, we're not -- we're not going 14 to produce, lead, zinc, silver or copper, we're just 15 going to produce two (2) rock concentrates, one (1) lead, 16 the other zinc, it'll go to a smelter, it could -- it'll 17 likely go to Trail, but it could go offshore, or it could 18 go to Manitoba, we haven't decided on that yet, and then 19 at the smelter they will actually produce lead, zinc, 20 copper and silver. 21 And as I noted, the ore will be trucked 22 out to the nearest rail head, and we haven't decided yet, 23 it's likely going to go to Fort Nelson, but it's possible 24 it could go over to Enterprise, it all depends which 25 direction it's going in.

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  1                 Is that what you were -- is that enough,
  2  Jonas, or -- yeah.
  3                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, Jonas?
  4                 MR. JONAS ANTOINE:   Yes, and also I think
  5  I  -- I've asked you this at one time too, the
  6  possibility of neutralizing cyanide and flying it out of
  7  there.
  8                 MR. DAN O'ROURKE:   Oh, yeah, yeah.  Yeah. 
  9  Yeah, there's two (2) options, I -- I mean just from a
 10  scientific standpoint, we'll forget about what the
 11  Government would let you do and -- or wouldn't let you
 12  do.
 13                 But, you know, technically, yeah, you
 14  could fly that stuff out of there.  Technically you could
 15  neutralize that stuff on site.  Let's go with
 16  neutralization because this was suggested to us last year
 17  when we were here.
 18                 To neutralize it, we have to bring in
 19  huge, huge volumes of chlorine.  And I know everybody
 20  here knows what chlorine is and it is -- it's about the,
 21  well it's deadly, put it this way, if it ever got into
 22  that water, it would kill everything, instantly.
 23                 Also, we'd have to have some sort of tank
 24  system built back in there to hold this solution, because
 25  it takes years to do this neutralization.  So we're going

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1 to have this sort of toxic soup that would be sitting out 2 there for decades. 3 And you know, as Marie Lafferty said, you 4 know, what ever -- what's going to happen to this stuff 5 if there was a major earthquake or something like that? 6 I mean, that's the last stuff in the world you want to 7 have out there. Having said that, I doubt at all whether 8 the Government would even let us think about doing it, 9 okay. It's just too dangerous in there. 10 The second thing, yeah, flying out, yeah, 11 we could -- we could fly it out and we checked this out 12 during the wintertime, but we'd only be allowed to take 13 very small quantities at a time, because it's so 14 dangerous. 15 But as you remember from last year what we 16 said, and maybe -- maybe you weren't here, Jonas, I 17 forget. You know, we went out and did the same thing what 18 you would do as Chiefs, over something this deadly, we 19 hired a scientist. 20 And he told us, number 1, the safest 21 condition to keep this in is dry, which the way it is. 22 And he said the safest way to transport it is by truck. 23 And -- and ever since we heard that this was a concern of 24 the communities, and this goes back to the fall of 2003, 25 we've been trying to get this stuff so we could truck it

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1 out. 2 But the -- but the minute we're -- we're 3 allowed to reopen that road, the first three (3) trucks 4 out, and that's what it will be, three (3) flatbeds will 5 carry that zinc down probably to Swan Hills in Alberta, 6 where they have a facility which is Government regulated, 7 and they will properly destroy that material. 8 And again, I must emphasize that we have 9 absolutely no use for that or any other agent like that 10 on the property. We will never be using any toxic 11 materials or agents like that. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that about it? 13 Thank you, Dan. 14 Okay. If there is no other comments or 15 questions, we will continue with our Agenda. Thank you 16 very much sir, Dan. Whoop, whoop, sorry, sorry there, 17 Dan, you have to take your chair there for a couple more 18 minutes. We have the main man here, he got a couple 19 questions. 20 Eric Betsaka, Chief of Nahanni Butte. I 21 apologize for that. 22 CHIEF ERIC BETSAKA: Thank you. Thank 23 you. I guess Dan, our concern with the mine, I guess 24 it's just, you know, in lieu of what has happened the 25 last couple of years, with regard to progress, you know,

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1 we're -- we're quite concerned of the developments that 2 take place up in that area. 3 And just your response to a number of 4 things, specifically regarding the -- the environment, 5 you know, last year I -- I questioned you as to the fuel 6 burn at a number of your caches and I was like, why 7 didn't the mine do this themself? 8 But then DIAND ended up coughing up a 9 bunch of money to -- to do this for you, and your 10 response was, well, we told them we'd do it if they gave 11 us our permits. 12 We asked for an environmental assessment 13 to develop this winter road, and you took us to Court. 14 So I guess, you know, from our community you don't seem 15 very concerned about the environment. 16 This past summer we had the -- a great 17 opportunity to meet with the famous Dr. Suzuki at the 18 Assembly and he said, mining is the worst thing you could 19 do to the environment. And I don't know the -- the 20 history of mining in the NWT, but I bet you there's a lot 21 of clean up left to do. 22 You know, I'm not the smartest person or 23 the, you know, the -- the person that's -- has answers 24 for my community, but it's, you know, your -- your 25 proposed mine doesn't make sense, economically.

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1 And I think if we continue down this road, 2 there's going to be -- we're going to be butting heads. 3 I mean, how -- how hard is it to do an environmental 4 assessment and say, you know, these are things that are 5 going to happen, and let our community know, because 6 we're -- we're concerned. 7 I think it was last week Can Tung Mine had 8 another fuel spill, and I was speaking to some of my 9 representatives this past summer about the develop -- 10 development of this -- this mine, you know, they were 11 basically out on the land, you know, on their -- their 12 dog team and come across this road and a fuel truck 13 almost, you know, run them over. 14 And then they -- they kept on this road, 15 and then this fuel truck is tipped over, leaked a bunch 16 of fuel, and I think you know, this individual checked 17 this area out a few years ago, and all the vegetation is 18 dead. 19 So you know, I just wanted to -- to view 20 our concerns and I know you're -- you're quite concerned 21 with the land use plan, but you know, there's -- if you 22 factor in everything about mining abandonment and the 23 clean up and, I mean, I don't -- I don't think you have 24 the money to -- to clean up that mine site. Mahsi. 25 MR. DAN O'ROURKE: You know, thank you

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1 very much for those comments, Chief. And you know, and I 2 think I've said this to you before, but we -- we 3 understand that there's people in your community that do 4 not want this mine. 5 And regardless of whether it's, you 6 know, it's -- it's safe, as we say it is, and you know, 7 and the Government's only going to allow us to open it if 8 it is safe, but regardless even if it is safe, in their 9 minds they still don't want to see development back 10 there, we understand that. 11 You know, our -- our problem is though, 12 we're -- you know, what you see there, it's there. And - 13 - and to reopen this mine, there's really no 14 construction, you know, like we have to replace the 15 camps. 16 We just finished tying off the steel and 17 that in the mill, we have to replace a bunkhouse, buy a 18 couple of pieces of equipment, under -- you know, 19 underground it's ready to go, you know, we've got about 20 6/7 kilometres at three (3) different levels. 21 You know, if there was some way, you know, 22 as I've said before. If there's some way the company 23 could move this property we'd move it. But unfortunately 24 that's -- that's just not possible. 25 So how can we develop this project,

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1 without being overly disrespectful, understanding that, 2 you know, I mean, if I was in your -- your shoes, I'd be 3 jumping mad, because you know, you don't want this thing 4 to occur, and how could this possibly happen. 5 And you know what, the only thing I can 6 say to you about that is, you know, remember there was a 7 cooperation agreement signed back in '96 between the 8 community and the company, and there was a unanimous 9 resolution of support for that, from the then called 10 Dehcho Tribal Council. So I mean, you know, what I'm 11 suggesting, even at that time there must have been a 12 close look at it. 13 But that still doesn't cover off the fact 14 that you don't like it. And the only thing I can say is 15 that it's going to force us to be on our toes all the 16 time. 17 And we'll come into your community as 18 often as we can, you know, to find out what your people, 19 what they dislike specifically, and to help us manage 20 this thing in the best possible way. Or you know, to put 21 it in another way, to make best possible situation out of 22 the worst, or the best out of a worst situation for your 23 community. 24 With respect to the road, you know, we've 25 talked about that before because, you know, the deadly

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1 substance that we'd have on, whether it's a winter road 2 or a year round road is fuel, but you know, as we've said 3 from day 1, we'll -- we'll clamp down on that road in 4 terms of management. And if the communities want, we'll 5 have actually escort vehicles in front of these trucks to 6 guarantee that they go a certain speed. 7 These are matters I think just by talking 8 together, that we can work out. It doesn't mean that 9 we're looking for you to support the mine, it's just try 10 to make the best out of a bad situation for both of us. 11 Regarding the history of mining in the 12 North, I'd be the first to tell you it's terrible. You 13 know, I'm sure when these mines in Yellowknife were first 14 built, you just went up there and did whatever you wanted 15 to do and then you told the Government about it 16 afterwards, you know. And a person would be crazy to try 17 to defend what the industry used to do. 18 But you know, times have changed, and you 19 know, I can tell you just from experience with this mine, 20 I've never seen anything that is so regulated, so 21 monitored, you know, we have monitors coming in from 22 everybody you can think of in the Government all the 23 time, looking at the water and everything else. With 24 cyanide, they check that every year to make sure it's all 25 right.

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1 Regarding the Court action on the winter 2 road, that wasn't a suit against Nahanni Butte. What we 3 did is when we applied for that to reopen the winter 4 road, you know, we -- we said to the Land and Water 5 Board, we think this should be grand-fathered, they 6 disagreed and we went to Court. And the judge decided 7 that under the law we were right, it did meet the 8 conditions of grand-fathering, that is -- there'd already 9 been an EA done on it, there wasn't a need for a second 10 EA. 11 But you know, I can understand, you 12 know, in Nahanni Butte you wouldn't understand that in 13 the sense this road was -- the last time it was open was 14 a long time ago, you know, back in the early '80's, and 15 you know, so people have forgotten about what occurred at 16 that time. 17 With -- with respect to Can Tung, you 18 know, I agree, it's unfortunate they had a fuel spill on 19 the road, I hadn't heard about that. But like I said, 20 we've got a way to manage that with escort vehicles. 21 But it is interesting you mentioned Can 22 Tung, because you know, I'm sure everybody here knows 23 that, you know, they've been producing at that mine on 24 and off since the 1960's. And it's another concentration 25 process, you know, of just concentrating the ore.

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1 And you know, it's -- you asked 2 yourselves, I mean, just ask yourselves and your -- the 3 older people in Nahanni Butte, has that had any 4 significant impact on that watershed? Because you know 5 it's farther into the watershed than Prairie Creek. 6 Now as it happened, I happened to ask 7 somebody in Parks that question in November in 8 Yellowknife, you know, has it had a significant effect 9 and they said, no. And that sort of made me wonder, well 10 how come I never hear about -- not from First Nations, 11 but from other NGO's, we never hear about Can Tung Mine, 12 they only talk about Prairie Creek. 13 But the bottom line is, Chief, we want to 14 be as respectful as we can with your community and -- and 15 develop as close a relationship we can just to help us 16 stay on our toes to make sure this done properly. But -- 17 but again, you know, like I said, we're in -- we're in 18 the worst of all situations where you don't want the mine 19 but yet we have to go forward. For that, you know, I'm 20 sorry we're in that situation. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you, Dan. 22 That would be the last of the -- the 23 questions and comments. Thank you very much. We're still 24 talking about yesterday's issues. We haven't even 25 started today's discussions yet.

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1 So if we can continue. I would like to 2 call up the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society to the 3 point please there ladies. Please introduce yourselves. 4 5 PRESENTATION BY CPAWS: 6 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: We love being, you 7 know, low tech. We're up for the challenge and maybe we 8 could just start off by introducing ourselves. 9 My name is Jennifer Morin. I'm the Senior 10 Conservation Coordinator with the Canadian Parks and 11 Wilderness Society Northwest Territories Chapter. I've 12 been working with CPAWS for about three and a half (3 13 1/2) years and actually one of our first employees is in 14 the room, Gillian McKee. She was the first person that 15 actually started working in Yellowknife in 1999. 16 But I'll hand the microphone over to Erica 17 Janes. 18 MS. ERICA JANES: And I'll try and speak 19 slowly. Thanks, Jen. 20 I'm Erica Janes. I'm the Conservation 21 Coordination with CPAWS NWT. Both Jen and I are based in 22 Yellowknife. I've been with CPAWS for almost a year so 23 I'm learning and here to help Jen out and make the 24 presentation. 25 While we're getting going with the

148
  1  projector I don't think we brought enough copies of our
  2  presentation so hopefully everyone can find a copy to
  3  share and if you'd like a copy for yourself please let us
  4  know after the presentation.
  5                 I'd also like to thank Chief Roy Fabian,
  6  the rest of the Dehcho leadership that are here today and
  7  the community members, representatives, and the Committee
  8  for giving us the opportunity to come share our views and
  9  -- and be here and listen.
 10  
 11                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 12  
 13                 MS. ERICA JANES:   I'll just start.  We
 14  wanted to give a -- a brief outline of our presentation
 15  just so that you know what's -- what we're going to be
 16  talking about.  We'll go through -- I'll go through a
 17  little bit of history of CPAWS NWT.  I will go through
 18  our overall comments on the draft plan. 
 19                  And just to let you know our presentation
 20  is a general overview of our written submission that we
 21  gave to the Committee.  And so if you're looking for more
 22  specific comments they can be found posted on the web.
 23                 I'd like to talk a bit about Nahanni, the
 24  park expansion process as well as proposed an existing
 25  development in the watershed and from then I'm going to

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1 hand it over to Jen and she's going to talk about mining 2 closure and planning, cumulative effects, next steps, and 3 planning implementation and then we'll wrap it up. 4 So the Canadian Parks and Wilderness 5 Society Northwest Territories Chapter was founded in 1996 6 by a group of volunteers in Yellowknife. We're a part of 7 a national non profit conservation organization that's 8 dedicated to protecting Canada's wilderness. That means 9 that we work to protect the land and water in the NWT. 10 We'd like to point out that we're not 11 opposed to development, we just want to make sure that 12 it's carefully considered and done in a way that has the 13 least impact on the land, water, and wildlife and that 14 it's respectful of the community's wishes. 15 We spend the majority of our time working 16 with communities and other partners on the Northwest 17 Territories' Protected Area Strategy. We helped create 18 the strategy in 1999 and we remain part of the steering 19 committee that guides the Protected Area Strategy on 20 which Jonas -- oh, I don't see Jonas -- Jonas Antoine 21 sits as a -- as the representative for the Dehcho. 22 And so I'm also going to touch on a couple 23 of specific sites that we're working on in a -- in a few 24 slides here. In terms of our general comments on the 25 plan we have five (5) major points.

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1 Number 1. Overall the plan strikes a 2 balance between conservation and development. 3 Number 2. We see that the strength of the 4 plan is that it allows for landscape connectivity between 5 conservation zones and special management zones so that 6 areas that are protected aren't isolated from each other. 7 Okay. I'm going too fast. Sorry. 8 Another way of saying this is that the land, the water, 9 and the wildlife are connected across the landscape. 10 Number 3. The plan has strength in its 11 compatibility with other processes such as the Northwest 12 Territories Protected Area Strategy. 13 Number 4. We support the designation of 14 the entire South Nahanni Watershed as a conservation 15 zone. 16 And Number 5. The plan is strong because 17 of its community focus and the broad range of 18 consultations that have been undertaken to create it. 19 So just to show a couple of examples of 20 protected areas that we're working on with communities 21 and in the Dehcho to the PAS that overlap with the land 22 use planning work that's been going on, the first one (1) 23 is Pehdzeh Ki Deh. We're partners with the Pehdzeh Ki 24 First Nation. 25 This is something that Jen spends a lot of

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1 time working on in cooperation with a lot of different 2 people including D'Arcy Moses in Wrigley. The area is 3 east of Wrigley and it includes the three (3) main 4 watersheds. It was initially identified by the community 5 for cultural reasons. 6 Another area that we've been involved in 7 is Edehzhie also known as the Horn Plateau. We've worked 8 with partners in quite a few different communities that 9 have an interest in the area. Many communities do use 10 the -- the area. It's a large area and it's in the later 11 stages of the PAS process which is why it's been 12 designated as a PAS zone in the draft plan. 13 Next I'd like to talk a little bit about 14 Nahanni. CPAWS has had a longstanding interest in this 15 area since the late 1960's. Our position is that the 16 entire watershed should be protected and we support 17 Dehcho First Nations and Parks Canada in the park 18 expansion process that's ongoing. 19 One of the reasons we support park 20 expansion is that the park reserve doesn't protect the 21 long-term health of the land, water, and wildlife as it 22 stands. This is also known as ecological integrity. 23 Woodland caribou are one (1) species of concern because 24 they use parts of the watershed that are outside of the 25 existing national park reserve.

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1 Grizzly bears are another species of 2 concern that live in the watershed and we've been 3 involved with some research that has identified some very 4 important grizzly bear habitat in the watershed. 5 So this somewhat complicated looking map 6 is showing some important karst features around Nahanni. 7 'Karst' is a geological term. It's just a kind of 8 limestone, a kind of rock that gets dissolved in the 9 water and forms caves and river systems, tunnels 10 underground. 11 Nahanni's karsts are unique in the world 12 and they're really vulnerable to the impacts of 13 development which is why we support them being included 14 in the park expansion. The karst lands are also a really 15 important sheep habitat. And this is just a photo of the 16 Ram plateau, and another. 17 CPAWS has been working across the country 18 to promote full watershed protection of Nahanni. This 19 past year we put on a seventeen (17) city national tour 20 in support of water -- full watershed protection and the 21 Chair included. 22 Important folks like Grand Chief Herb 23 Norwegian, Chief Eric Betsaka, and in the middle that's 24 Justin Trudeau, biologist Dr. John Weaver, and karst 25 expert Dr. Derek Fork, were also part of the tour.

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1 We understand that there are conflicting 2 interests in the watershed. We've also been involved in 3 the regulatory aspects of proposed and existing 4 developments. One of these is that a proposed Prairie 5 Creek Mine, shown there on the map with the pink arrow, 6 it's just upstream of the existing park. And the next 7 slide just shows a photograph, we've all just seen a 8 different version of that photograph in the previous 9 presentation. 10 Another is the existing Can Tung Mine, 11 which is also upstream of the existing park on the Flat 12 River. And, again, a photograph of the mine site. 13 There's also proposed mineral exploration 14 at Howard's Pass, which is in the northwest part of the 15 watershed, not too far from Can Tung. This is a slide of 16 the Flat River. 17 And before I turn it over to Jen, I just 18 want to say that the Land Use Plan gives a huge 19 opportunity to protect the entire South Nahanni 20 watershed. 21 22 (BRIEF PAUSE) 23 24 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: So the next area I'd 25 like to talk about is mine closure and planning, and in

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1 the Land Use Plan it's called Mine Abandonment and 2 Restoration. 3 One thing in our presentation -- I -- I 4 don't know if it was mentioned earlier on -- is that our 5 -- our submission, although the detailed comments are in 6 the written letter that's put forward to the Committee 7 but we just wanted to touch on a few highlights. 8 And this is one that I thought was 9 important to bring up given the historic mining legacy 10 not only in the Dehcho but also in the rest of the 11 Northwest Territories. It's something to -- that's 12 important to consider in land use planning. 13 First of all, we strongly support the 14 involvement of First Nations in the aspects of mine 15 closure and planning. We feel what the Land Use Planning 16 Committee is proposing is compatible with existing 17 legislation, policies and guidelines already put forward 18 by Government. 19 And, again, to reiterate the importance, 20 we really think this is an upfront investment in 21 protecting the land and water. It's like putting your 22 money in the bank to make sure that, you know, we -- it 23 will be there later and you know that the land will be 24 intact. 25 The photos at the bottom, you know, are

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1 showing some tanks that are over twenty-five (25) years 2 old. Twenty-five (25) years ago they were never painted. 3 Recently there were permits issued to have some work done 4 at this site and they found some issues with them, 5 although minor. They found holes in the tanks, small 6 pinhole pricks where fuel could leak out into the berms, 7 and that some of the valves needed upgrading. 8 But this is something that, you know, we - 9 - we don't want to see happen. We want to make sure that 10 this stuff is stopped before development is allowed to 11 proceed, that it's done in a safe manner. 12 The next is cumulative effects. I know 13 it's a hot buzzword all around the table, we've been 14 talking about it for a couple days now. I -- I know it's 15 -- it's hard to translate into Slavey. But essentially 16 to me they're basically the additive results from 17 development. 18 As an example, I have this photo in the 19 background of the slide, it's taken from Alberta. And I 20 want you all to imagine what -- what this landscape was 21 like twenty (20), thirty (30), forty (40) years ago. It 22 might have been this forest with mountains in the back, 23 with lots of wildlife walking around, with clean, fresh 24 water. 25 So what you have -- have had happen in

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1 this photo, first you've had seismic, maybe an access 2 road, they used machines to find out what's beneath the 3 ground, they cut trees, and then the next step is a drill 4 rig, exploration wells, and then more seismic and then a 5 pipeline. 6 Because of this increased access that the 7 oil and gas created, this may have led to forestry that 8 you see in the background, you see the clear cuts right - 9 - right behind the oil and gas. 10 So basically the cumulative effects are 11 all the effects from the development, to the air, to the 12 water, to the land, to the wildlife, and over time they 13 add up. 14 What the committee is proposing is a way 15 to manage or take care of these -- these effects. 16 Another analogy is you know, like a teenager making sure 17 that they're home before their curfew, before they get 18 too ragged, before they get bags under their eyes and get 19 into trouble, so just making sure that you protect your 20 family. 21 So the first point on -- on this is, we 22 really strongly support the need for quantitative 23 thresholds. I think really without quantitative 24 thresholds, or thresholds that have a number, the plan 25 does not have strength.

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1 And just as important as having 2 quantitative thresholds or thresholds with numbers, it's 3 critical to retain the cumulative effects research 4 actions, actions ten (10) to sixteen (16), it's the only 5 way that we can move forward and really determine whether 6 or not these numbers are working, or if they need to be 7 changed. 8 Likewise, we also would really like to see 9 the reintroduction of tiered thresholds, and again, the 10 tiered thresholds is kind of like, to use an example that 11 was discussed a while ago, is you know, red -- a red 12 light, a yellow light and a green light to development. 13 So when it's coming to yellow, you know, oh, you know, I 14 need to be careful, maybe I should bump up my monitoring. 15 Ideally we'd like to see these introduced, re-introduced. 16 And the last -- some of the last points 17 we'd like to make is just the next -- next steps and the 18 plan implementation. 19 Really hope that the work the committee 20 has ahead of them, working with Dehcho communities to 21 iron out some of the creases, to get a plan that the 22 communities can be happy with is -- is something that's 23 doable. Also working with industries -- industry, other, 24 and Government, we really hope that everyone can be 25 helpful in the committee's mission to get a plan out

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1 fairly soon. 2 And lastly, the timing of this, again, the 3 work that the committee has done has been extraordinary 4 in a -- in the perspective of, they've been able to meet 5 time lines, budgets, they've been able to deliver time 6 and time after again, whether it's comprehensive research 7 reports, studies, community consultation, going to 8 Ottawa, going to Calgary. 9 I really think we -- we owe it to the 10 committee to also put our heads together and focus and 11 get our -- get our positions and specific recommendations 12 forward to the committee as soon as possible, to ensure 13 that the plan doesn't end up collecting dust on some 14 bureaucrat's desk or inbox. 15 So in summary, just to reiterate the main 16 points of our presentation, to -- to go back to what 17 Anadarko said this morning, you know, striking a balance 18 between development and conservation is, you know, it's a 19 goal that I think everyone can share in this room. 20 And as it stands, there is 52.7 percent, 21 including the protected area zones and conservation 22 zones, that have been identified for conservation and 23 then 47.3 percent which has been left open for 24 development. 25 And if you look at it in a partnership if

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1 you're going to go in with someone and you make a 2 handshake it's usually 50:50. You know, everyone's 3 getting an equal share so we really see this as a true 4 balance between conservation and development. 5 We also see the land use plan as a 6 complementary process with other existing processes like 7 the Northwest Territories Protected Area Strategy and the 8 Nahanni National Park expansion. We also, again, support 9 Nahanni as a conservation zone. 10 Mine closure and planning, we'd like -- 11 really we'd like to see this kept in the plan as is. And 12 we want those numbers. Not crazy about Bingo but we want 13 those numbers. And, again, the research component, we 14 really think this is an important part and the 15 reintroduction of tier thresholds. 16 So, again, just to touch briefly on the 17 next steps on the plan and their -- and implementing -- 18 implementation of the plan, we really think that the plan 19 is reflective of many -- many interests, Dehcho 20 communities, government, industry, non-governmental 21 organizations and once it is finalized and approved by 22 Dehcho First Nations, government will approve it or 23 provide favourable consideration, not only in light of 24 their mandate to support communities and -- Aboriginal 25 communities and organizations, but also for the long term

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1 interests of all Canadians. 2 And this is my artistic slide for -- for 3 the people out there that like -- like abstract. 4 Probably some of the Hardisty boys or the -- the Antoines 5 might know where this was taken. 6 This is a photo taken in the early fall. 7 You can see the difference in the land in the far 8 background. You have the dark green spruce forest. In 9 the foreground you see -- and you can see some of the 10 rivers in yellow, lined with poplar or birch. 11 And in the foreground you see all the 12 yellow and if you look at it -- and then in the -- in the 13 very front of the picture you see the mix, the mixture of 14 the two colours and I really think this is a symbol of 15 how the land use planning can work. 16 If you have development in the green or 17 conservation in -- in yellow it's -- it's the whole land. 18 It's working together. You wouldn't want to have all 19 green or all yellow. You need a bit of interest and a 20 bit of health so really like to just congratulate you on 21 the hard work you've done and we wish you the best in the 22 final stretch. Mahsi. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Jennifer, 24 Erica, CPAWS. If anybody has any comments of questions, 25 just need a couple. We're kind of behind schedule on

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1 this agenda. 2 If not, thank you very much. Okay, the 3 next presenters would be from the World Wildlife Fund. 4 We have Mr. Carpenter and -- just a minute, we have a 5 chair here, got a few comments. 6 MR. DENNIS BEVINGTON: Well, good 7 afternoon, everybody. I'm very pleased to be here, of 8 course, as your new representative in Ottawa. I'm -- I'm 9 glad to have this opportunity to, very early in -- in my 10 time, to -- to hear about the Dehcho land use planning 11 process. 12 Unfortunately, I wasn't able to get here 13 for the first two (2) days but I'm here now and I've had 14 a chance to look through some of the documents. I think 15 it's very important with the work you're doing here in 16 developing a land use plan. 17 I sat on the Mackenzie Valley Board, 18 Environmental Impact Review Board, for a number of years 19 and I always felt frustrated that there weren't land use 20 plans in place for the region so that we could properly 21 assess development without -- without understanding what 22 people wanted to see on the land, the conditions that 23 they wanted to see met in -- in the various areas on the 24 land that especially First Nations have rights to. 25 This -- this made the job of assessing

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1 projects very difficult and it also made it very 2 difficult to interpret the impact that projects would 3 have based on what people wanted to see with that land. 4 So, as you clarify to -- you know, through 5 your process, the Dehcho process, the land use situations 6 that you would carry forward, that, I think, will make -- 7 will make it much easier for everyone involved in -- in 8 the future. 9 There's -- I -- I've been through an 10 election campaign of eight (8) weeks and it's -- I felt 11 that during that time throughout the North that the 12 issues of resource development were on everyone's minds 13 wherever I went. 14 And they were issues that people take very 15 seriously and we recognize how important these issues are 16 to us and how we have to work together to make -- make 17 this territory into something that can, first of all, 18 take advantage of resource development and, as well, 19 withstand the impacts of resource development. 20 There's -- and that goes from one end of 21 the territory to the other. I -- I didn't find a 22 community where people weren't anxious and willing to 23 talk about resource development. 24 At the same time, I've been in three (3) 25 election campaigns and to my mind this election campaign

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1 there was more concern about the environment than ever 2 before among everybody up here. I think the warm winter 3 may have focussed people's minds on what -- how man can 4 change the land, how the impacts of what human beings do 5 right across this world can impact us in our own 6 communities and on our own land. 7 And that was clear that that issue of 8 environment is very strong right now in the minds of 9 people and I -- to me that was a very positive thing to 10 have a -- to -- and to hear at the doorstep in hundreds 11 of circumstances during that election campaign. 12 It said to me that people are now 13 listening to what -- listening to what is going on with 14 the environment, seeing what is going on with the 15 environment and want to -- want to make a difference; 16 that'll -- that'll bring a lot of tough choices in the 17 future and the work that you're doing here is leading you 18 towards making decisions, making the process yield the 19 results that you want for your own land. 20 I've always been impressed with the Dehcho 21 the way that you've stood up over the last -- with your 22 process over many years. You've stood up for what you 23 believe in. You have idealism. At the same time you're 24 practical. Many of your communities have moved ahead 25 with -- with development that has worked out okay for

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1 you, that's made a difference for you. 2 So you have lots of elements in the Dehcho 3 that -- that are there and that are experienced. You 4 have idealism, you have practicality. You have to bring 5 those two (2) things together. As you do bring those 6 together you will -- you will be leaders in the North in 7 -- in developing and using your land and protecting your 8 land. 9 So, I -- I'm here today to listen and to 10 meet and understand people from the region. I've lived 11 in the Northwest Territories my whole life. Born and 12 raised here. But that doesn't make me an expert on every 13 region of this country, this -- this land up here. 14 It's -- it's complex. It has different 15 concerns and as a politician and as your representative I 16 want to clearly understand your side of the issue and 17 with that understanding I can do a better job for you in 18 Ottawa. 19 So I'll be in your communities over -- you 20 know, I want to make that a big part of what the work 21 that I'm going to be doing over the next number of years, 22 as long as this parliament may last, and you'll see me in 23 your communities. 24 And please, you know, challenge me on what 25 I'm doing. What I can do for you and make your points

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1 known to me; that will assist me in the work that I'm 2 doing and I appreciate it. I'm -- I'm not there to -- to 3 -- I'm not going to Ottawa to bring my own message, I'm 4 going to Ottawa to bring the message that people here 5 want brought forward. 6 At the same time, you know, we're in a 7 period right now where not only have you changed 8 representation here but we've changed the government in 9 Ottawa so there's a lot different circumstances out 10 there. There's a new government that doesn't have many 11 linkages to the Northwest Territories or to any of the 12 regions here. 13 I think it's -- we should take advantage 14 of that and by building more unity in the Northwest 15 Territories right now we can present a better -- we have 16 a good opportunity with the new government if we can 17 build unity within the Northwest Territories ourselves on 18 issues in the regions. 19 If you have a clear idea of where you want 20 to go, if you can bring the different elements of your 21 region together you will be much stronger in dealing with 22 the Federal government, in making your case work with a 23 new government that is there right today. 24 And as your representative I'll work hard 25 on your behalf but I will -- I will hope that we'll all

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1 work hard to -- to be a stronger region. A region that 2 works together more, that presents a united front, that 3 is a -- that is a better way to move ahead in the -- in 4 the future. 5 I'm -- the other issues that come up in an 6 election are interesting. They -- they speak really to 7 how people live up here. We're -- so many of our 8 communities have trouble just making ends meet. People 9 that are working are living on the edge because, of 10 course, the cost of living and -- and the way our 11 communities are structured now makes it very difficult. 12 And I think we have to recognize that. To 13 me, that's one thing that I want to work on for everyone 14 in the North is how to bring down our cost of living. We 15 need to work on that as well, that's -- that, to me, is a 16 prime concern that was raised over and over again at the 17 doorstep in this election. 18 But that's not -- to this -- to this 19 meeting I think I'll hear what you have to say, what kind 20 of development that you want to see on your land, how you 21 want to work with that, where you want to protect your 22 land, how you want to see it -- how you want to see that 23 protection take place under formal structures of the 24 Federal government, under your own structures. 25 When -- when I understand that I'll be

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1 able to present your case as well. I'm here to listen 2 today and I certainly would appreciate any comments that 3 you direct towards me and I'm certainly open for 4 questions now as well, privately. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks, there, 6 Dennis. We'd like to continue to move on with our 7 meeting. I'm glad that Dennis has come down to say a few 8 words to us. Our member for the Western Arctic, Dennis 9 Bevington, NDP member. NDP means what; New Dehcho Plan, 10 is that what that stands for? Yeah. Right on that guy. 11 Okay, Bill, it's your show. Sorry to take 12 the limelight away from you. Okay. 13 Okay, Bill...? 14 15 PRESENTATION BY WORLD WILDLIFE FUND: 16 MR. WILLIAM CARPENTER: Mr. Chairman, 17 Grand Chief, Elders, host Chief Roy Fabian, delegates and 18 friends, my name is Bill Carpenter and, as I said earlier 19 when I made a comment on another presentation, I'm the 20 Conservation Director for the World Wildlife Fund for the 21 Northwest Territories. 22 We are the world's largest conservation 23 organization and have been very active in the north for 24 over forty (40) years. We are a very middle of the road 25 organization, in fact, gaining much of our money and

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1 income and support from the corporate world. 2 We're not anti-trapping as everyone I 3 think here knows and we're not against the pipeline. We 4 are working primarily with the protected area strategy 5 work which is a community driven process and, yes, we 6 would support changes in boundaries, whether they're 7 increased or decreased, if communities want them to 8 because we're there just to provide financial, 9 administrative and technical support. 10 And I think I've been in most of your 11 communities and, in fact, all of them, and I've been at 12 all your assemblies in the last eight (8) or nine (9) 13 years, so you've heard our work before. 14 Before I go on I would like to introduce 15 my guest and colleague. Many of you know him and there 16 are some relationships to him here in the Dehcho, but I 17 have with me Angus Lennie from the Sahtu. He's a Sahtu 18 beneficiary. 19 He is currently assisting in the work with 20 the Tulita conservation initiative which involves four 21 (4) possible protected areas, the Nahanni headwaters 22 expansion into the Sahtu and three (3) other areas 23 identified by the Elders of Tulita. 24 You'll certainly be seeing more of Angus 25 with me as I'm in to your communities over the next

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1 little while as we gradually increase his participation 2 with the World Wildlife Fund and the protected area work. 3 So with that, we'll go on to the presentation. 4 We've already provided comments on 5 specific sections of the land use plan in our written 6 submission we don't need to repeat here. But this 7 presentation will just focus on a few key issues. 8 If we're looking at safeguarding the 9 natural wealth or capital of a country it's appropriate 10 to have some long term generation of ecologically 11 sustainable activities or environmentally friendly 12 activities. 13 And when we say "from local to global" 14 we're referring to these community consultations have 15 been an integral part of the process of the land use plan 16 and they also, many of them, address the global and 17 national commitments that benefit all Canadians. 18 In previous submissions and -- and another 19 presentation we did show this one (1) but we repeat it 20 here to show that there is a variety of ecological 21 communities that are being well represented in the 22 conservation zones. If you're going to safeguard your 23 natural resources and your environment it is necessary to 24 protect functioning ecosystems. 25 Conservation zones that protect natural

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1 ecosystems should be large enough to support natural and 2 human disturbances and contain a variety of species and 3 habitat types and age classes. So our assessment of your 4 land use plan and the conservation zones is that it 5 certainly represents a variety of ecological communities 6 and they're well represented. 7 You do, however, have some wide ranging 8 species that use habitat that are large and by capturing 9 conservation zones these types do require some additional 10 management practices. 11 The example here is range contractions. I 12 think you've probably heard of this one or seen this 13 before where we had the grizzly bear habitat at one time 14 in a large part of North America -- a very large part of 15 North America and it has decreased about 53 percent. And 16 caribou -- woodland caribou has decreased about 24 17 percent. 18 So while these ranges are contracting 19 this makes the Northwest Territories almost the last 20 refuge for many of these. The Committee on the Status of 21 Endangered Wildlife in Canada has pointed out that the 22 Northwest population of grizzly bears has special concern 23 and the woodland caribou is threatened, meaning these 24 species could become endangered if threats from 25 development are not altered.

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1 In Alberta the grizzly bear recovery plan 2 recommended a number of things, including suspension of 3 the grizzly bear hunt, better management of access to the 4 grizzly bear habitat and protecting key areas from excess 5 industrial development. But, you know what, in Alberta 6 none of those things got implemented. 7 So the conclusions that we reach are that 8 grizzly bears and woodland caribou are vulnerable to a 9 variety of threats and require best practices to be 10 implemented by industry. 11 The grizzly bear up here, according to a 12 report I read yesterday, was that they have the highest 13 level of genetic diversity of all grizzly bears in North 14 America, which means they're in a pretty healthy state 15 right now. 16 But conservation areas are not taking off 17 -- our efforts are not taking off in the rest of Canada 18 which means that the Dehcho region is the last refuge for 19 this species. And the Dehcho land use plan offers the 20 opportunity to protect this last habitat of these 21 globally significant animals. Okay. 22 If we contrast the situation in Alberta 23 with the Dehcho, if this draft land use plan is approved, 24 the likelihood of persistent -- of wild ranging species 25 like grizzly bear and caribou depends on several key

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1 factors addressed by the Dehcho land use plan. 2 One is protection of critical habitat. 3 The home range of grizzly bears and caribou is large. So 4 it may not be realistic to protect all of their habitat. 5 However, the conservation zones can anchor species 6 habitat by protecting critical habitat such as calving 7 areas and post-calving areas for caribou or denning areas 8 for grizzly bears. 9 Your conservation zones and special 10 management zones were designed to protect critical 11 habitat for key species. If you can connectivity across 12 the landscape grizzly bears and woodland caribou need to 13 be able to move between habitat patches. So we do need a 14 corridor. 15 And contrary to what was, I think, stated 16 or concerned by our friend, Mike, with Cap, is that we, 17 in fact, do want to see some islands of development not 18 islands of protection. 19 If your conservation plans are supported 20 the way they're showing now, we will have conductivity 21 between critical habitat. And you do address that in 22 another area where you reference access and pipelines, 23 noting that there may be a need in conservation zones for 24 special access to permit development corridors through 25 them.

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1 So, I mean, I think this is quite 2 workable. There's a threshold on development. Grizzly 3 bears and woodland caribou are very sensitive to human 4 activity, especially grizzly bears. 5 So the land use plan has to include 6 thresholds beyond which -- pardon me, beyond from which 7 development cannot exceed. So your road densities and 8 corridor densities and minimum patch size and all this 9 are very important and we support it. 10 One important thing that we saw in your 11 land use plan, and I think our numbers are probably a 12 little low, but with over the hundred (100) community 13 meetings and nine (9) leadership meetings and numerous 14 other meetings and so on, it seems to me that there's 15 been an amazing amount of community and leadership 16 consultation. 17 And the people of the Dehcho have spoken 18 out very strongly in favour having areas, conservation 19 areas, set aside to help preserve part of their culture 20 and heritage as related to land use. So your communities 21 have asked for that. 22 And the outlines of the consultation have 23 driven the vision and goals of the Dehcho Land Use 24 Planning Board and have resulted in a plan which aims to 25 preserve the Dehcho cultural -- culture and heritage.

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1 And I think when they reach -- come to the 2 size of conservation areas which has been addressed by 3 many people, the fact is, maybe in the Dehcho, to 4 preserve some of your culture and your history and your 5 heritage and wildlife, you will have to have some 6 conservation zones that are larger than may be expected. 7 But, there are some unique ones. So we 8 certainly support that and I think if you look at 9 maintaining part of Canada's cultural mosaic, this is an 10 important element in your plan. 11 There is some national commitments that 12 you've made -- met. This one on the Tri-Council 13 commitment on Protected Areas; you've met the targets for 14 that. And your national commitments on the Northern 15 Strategy by encouraging traditional lifestyles are 16 clearly articulated, and we support that. 17 And site remediation is considered, but 18 potential impacts of having contaminated sites on nearby 19 Conservation Zones is not addressed. Okay. 20 The Convention on Global Bio-Diversity: 21 What we see here is that the coverage of protected areas, 22 and the trends of distribution of selected species, and 23 the forest under sustainable management; they can be met. 24 And industry best management practices will need -- will 25 mean a need for ongoing development as part of the

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1 adaptive management process, but we support that. 2 Similarly, under the Convention and Bio- 3 Diversity, when we look at the conservation of Arctic 4 Flora and Fauna, another global commitment is met, where 5 targets of participatory planning met through the Land 6 Use Planning Process. 7 And we could even say that the Kyoto 8 protocol has been met, where we see climate-change 9 adaptations, although not an explicit target in your 10 Conservation Zones, will nevertheless help and serve to 11 maintain natural habitat as a store or bank for climate 12 conditions which may change and effect species and 13 survival rates. 14 So, thank you very much, and we will 15 certainly be working with you as you continue to finish 16 your Land Use Plan, and I hope you are successful at 17 meeting some of the requirements that the Governments 18 have pointed out need to be addressed, and we will 19 continue to work with you. 20 Thank you very much. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, 22 Bill and Gord. Any comments? No comments. 23 I am getting signals here to have a quick 24 break, quick little break, right? Okay. 25 Before we take a break I'd like to call

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1 Gillian McKee up to the microphone, please. Gillian, 2 could you come up here please? Could you have a sit 3 there. 4 We've invited Gillian McKee, who is for -- 5 most of First Nation People in the Fort Simpson area are 6 quite familiar with her work. Back in the early 1990s 7 when we were involved in getting our communities 8 organized, Jean Marie, I think, Fort Simpson, we were 9 first talking about Protected Areas, Tribal Parks, some 10 really good stuff. 11 And as a result of that -- Gillian came 12 along and helped us out in opening our minds on a lot of 13 issues, and as a result of that, back in 1993, I think it 14 was, we had a gathering at Ekali Lake. For most of you, 15 maybe Stanley, Ernie and all of you remember that, 16 something happened there. 17 We planted something, we planted a seed 18 and we said that we are going to do something good from 19 here on in. We had Gabe Cazon, Mary Cazon and a lot of 20 good Elders, Mary Tsetse, a lot of these Elders that have 21 passed on now, helped us, and we fed the fire, and we 22 said, We will do something for our land from here on in. 23 And, lo and behold, we planted a seed, 24 Gillian was there with us, and there something grew. We 25 began Protected Areas' talks, we started talking about

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1 Tribal Parks, traditional Land Use Mapping. The next 2 thing you know it took off into Land Use Planning. 3 And so today, where we are at right now, 4 is we have created the incredible piece of work. And it 5 all began as a result of a little meeting that happened 6 in Ekali Lake in the spring of 1993. 7 And I wanted to thank Gillian McKee for 8 helping us out because she was kind of like a trainer for 9 most of us, got us to look at the big picture. 10 And with that I wanted to thank her for 11 helping us out and getting us to see what it is that we 12 could do with the land and some real creative ideas, and 13 because of that, we're there, we're right here today and 14 talking about the Land Use Planning whole package and 15 it's... 16 Gillian right now works with the Kwanlin 17 Dun in the Yukon, I think it is, the First Nation. So 18 with that I wanted to give her a couple of gifts. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, I wanted to give 23 her a couple of gifts here. One of them is a Dehcho Land 24 Use Plan cup, for sure, so she can drink some Yukon water 25 in it there, yes. A couple of pens there, so that she

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1 can write our names and stuff. And of course, the one 2 and only CD here of the Dehcho Land Use Plan so. 3 And of course I wanted to also give you a 4 poster, this is a poster of the ones that you see on the 5 wall back there, the Dene Nahodhe. That poster was 6 actually developed in Fort Providence, I think it was 7 about two (2) years ago. 8 And their elders gave us a hand, we told 9 them that we're developing this plan, what is it that -- 10 can you give us to put into the plan, and they said, 11 Well, this is all about us, it's about how we connect 12 with our land, and they said the word that -- that we use 13 is Nahodhe, where we come from and who we are. 14 And so as a result of that, we developed 15 this statement, it was adopted by the elders in that 16 gathering, and today this is a guiding principle, that 17 it's a guiding light for us. 18 And wanted to thank you for, of course, 19 coming here and helping us out. And we hope that the 20 Kwanlin Dun people take good care of you. 21 MS. GILLIAN MCKEE: Yeah, sure, yeah. 22 Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me here, it was a call 23 sort of out of the blue and I -- I was really curious to 24 come and see, as Herb said, where those seeds that were 25 planted, in my mind, as well, more than -- well almost

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1 twelve (12) or thirteen (13) years ago. 2 And like Herbie said, at Kelly Lake 3 something happened there, and the leaders who were there, 4 Herb, Marie Lafferty, Stan Sanquez, Jonas Antoine, Jim 5 Antoine, people like that, to me, at the time, they -- 6 they were -- they had a vision that they were also 7 bringing forward, and that was this idea that the 8 stewardship that they have as Dene people, how do you 9 bring that into land use planning, how do you bring that 10 forward into what we do today? 11 And I realize more and more, the longer I 12 work -- work in this field, that having that vision in 13 the leadership is -- is critical to the success. 14 So, and for myself, at the time when I was 15 sitting out there at Kelly Lake and it snowed on us and 16 we spent the week together and there were elders and 17 youth together, and the youth saw the elders going about 18 their business in the Yukon, I learned a new term, they 19 say, the elders are out there making their living, and 20 they're just skinning the beaver and stretching the 21 pelts. 22 And the elders, I remember one (1) time 23 where one of them threw a Styrofoam cup on the fire, and 24 the youth were saying, Oh, what about all the chemicals 25 and pollution coming from that. And the elders were

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1 really interested in that, they really realized that the 2 youth, through their education, were learning these 3 things that -- that they could learn then from each 4 other. So there was a real exchange. 5 And for myself, from being out there, and 6 -- and the work in Fort Simpson, I learned things like 7 inherent right, and what -- what that means more than 8 just what it is as a term on paper. And also I learned 9 that I'm a planner, that's my background, and to plan for 10 the future you have to understand the past, and these are 11 the sort of things I learned out there. So I was curious 12 to come here and see. 13 And I think that to me it's -- in spite of 14 all the technology and the analysis in this plan, I can 15 see that the guidance of elders like Dave and Mary 16 Caisson and Leo Norwegian and Leo Sassy (phonetic) is 17 definitely reflected in these maps and in the plans and 18 the work that you're doing. 19 And I -- I really want to congratulate the 20 Committee and the staff, for an incredible amount of work 21 that you've done in a short period of time. 22 And I -- I feel like I'm -- it confirms -- 23 reconfirms for me, this is the right way to do it, this 24 is the way to plan. And I'll -- I will take this back to 25 the Yukon with me, I can share, I'm still learning from

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  1  the Dehcho and I'll be able to share it with the people I
  2  work with now in the Yukon.  
  3                 So thank you for inviting me, and thank
  4  you to the K'atlodeeche First Nation and Chief Roy Fabian
  5  for your hospitality in hosting this gathering, and it's
  6  been wonderful, thank you very much.
  7                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Okay, folks, let's have
  8  a quick break and come back in ten (10) minutes, and
  9  we'll get into public comments, okay.
 10  
 11  --- Upon recessing at 3:20 p.m.
 12  --- Upon resuming at 3:40 p.m.
 13  
 14                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   It is now -- what is
 15  it, 3:30?  A quarter to 4:00?  We would now like to move
 16  into public comment.
 17                 I'd like to call up Arthur Martel and
 18  Daniel Sonfrere, for their first opening comments
 19  followed by George Low from DFO.
 20  
 21                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 22  
 23                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Okay, could people get
 24  into position, please?
 25                   Arthur...?  Number 4.

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1 (BRIEF PAUSE) 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Daniel Sonfrere had 4 asked Arthur Martel to say a few words on his behalf, so 5 if you can sit by the Elder there, Arthur, and you can 6 get into it, okay? 7 Arthur Martel, microphone number 4. 8 9 COMMENTS BY MR. ARTHUR MARTEL: 10 MR. ARTHUR MARTEL: Yeah, thank you very 11 much. What I like to mention is really the fact that I 12 know there's a very -- this is a very important meeting 13 here and also we have a lot of important peoples around 14 the table here and I had an opportunity to talk with our 15 Elders and they're concerns about what's happening on the 16 land. 17 And I think their major concern is -- is 18 probably stemmed right back from the treaties, whatever, 19 and respect to putting things aside for the young people 20 or for the future, for the young people. 21 And this has been dragged on for the last 22 hundred (100) years. Like, they've created a trust fund 23 and stuff like that to help the younger people in the 24 future. 25 And I think we've past that future a long

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1 time ago. I think I'm probably the -- maybe the second 2 grandson of the -- of the people that literally signed 3 these treaties. 4 And as talking with Elders and their 5 concern about the well-being of the young people 6 nowadays, there's a lot of activities that's happening in 7 respect to the land and also maybe economic development 8 or -- or any kind of social problems or social issues. 9 And right now there -- there's a lot of 10 activity or -- in -- in that area about creating 11 employment or else getting young people interested. 12 The primary concern about getting the 13 young people interested is the fact that, even right now, 14 there may be some curriculum that's probably being 15 revised in our educational system in regards to 16 accommodate the present situations. 17 But as far as the land is concerned, a lot 18 of young people, I -- I don't believe that they'll ever 19 live off the land or else go back to the land or to that 20 fashion. 21 But the fact remains is that there is a 22 history out there. The history of the land that our 23 Elders have use -- has used and have lived off the land 24 and the stories related to these activities are all 25 survival.

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1 There's all -- actually living from day to 2 day and how to -- how to live -- literally live off the 3 land and to be comfortable doing it and also to enjoy 4 doing it. 5 Not for the simple fact of survival but 6 for the simple fact of -- of being who you are, being an 7 Aboriginal person and being capable of living off the 8 land. 9 And these are being lost to our young 10 people. There is -- there is some efforts being made, I 11 imagine, to educate our young people about what is 12 happening, but I don't think that it's actually done in 13 the schools. 14 And I think the school is a -- is a really 15 good starting point for a lot of our young people. I'm a 16 bit familiar with the kind of curriculum that they have 17 in our present day school system, but there's a lot that 18 has to do with their Dene way of life, and I think that's 19 been ignored for a long time. 20 And by talking with our Elders and -- and 21 also their concern, and there's not very much credit been 22 given to the fact that our Elders are the ones that -- 23 that created this for us. 24 They're the -- they're the engineers of 25 all this is what's happening nowadays. I really -- I

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1 feel proud in the sense of sitting beside my Elder, who I 2 consider as a professor of -- of the land, of the places 3 that he's been. 4 He's well-educated in -- in the land, in 5 the way of the land and the way of the Dene people and 6 these are things that we have lost of them. 7 A lot of well -- so-called well-educated 8 young Aboriginal people are not really familiar with the 9 way of life that our Elders used to live. 10 They're more modernized nowadays as 11 there's a thing about being employed and also having 12 enough money coming in so that you can have a decent 13 life, nowadays. 14 You realize the -- the cost of food, even 15 the cost of travel and there's a lot of money being 16 exchanged and -- and the expenses that they have to live 17 on day -- day to day basis. 18 And there's a lot of unemployed Aboriginal 19 people in our -- in our land, and also there's a lot of 20 single parents that are not capable of being employed, 21 because of their family lifestyle, whatever. 22 And to my way of looking at it, that these 23 people are -- really need a lot of help. 24 And -- and in order to prepare them for 25 what is going to happen, I mean there's a great magnitude

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1 of things that's going to happen in our land here. 2 You realize -- I mean, people making 3 presentations here and I sit back and listen to it and I 4 realize how important all this progress is, and these 5 progress that's going to happen, there's -- oh, man, it's 6 just unimaginable, the amount of employment that's going 7 to be created in the Northwest Territories and that's 8 involving the pipeline, involving the bridge, involving 9 the highway, involving the work on the land. 10 There's a lot of employment that's going 11 to happen but who -- who is really looking after the fact 12 of training people to do this work? Or else, who's 13 actually looking after the fact of training our young 14 people to be prepared to do this work? 15 And those are the kind of things that my 16 Elder is talking about and also is concerned about. 17 At times there's mention about the land, 18 like Buffalo Lake, and -- and the parks and stuff like 19 that and -- and I talked with my Elder about things like 20 that and -- and for the longest time he's also mentioned 21 the fact that, you know, on the reserve here the people 22 living around this area here, have utilized Buffalo Lake 23 for centuries, you know, for last how many years? 24 But we don't have a game warden. We don't 25 have a Dene game warden out there. We don't have anybody

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1 -- any group of people that are literally monitor the 2 activity on our land. 3 And a lot of our young people are going 4 through school nowadays. I mean, they actually should be 5 educated in that area about -- about looking after our 6 land and that is a concern that I'd like to bring up to - 7 - to the people here and thank you for giving me an 8 opportunity to -- to say something about this. Thank you 9 very much. Mahsi cho. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Arthur. 11 Our next speaker, George Low, Department 12 of Fisheries and Oceans, and next would be Pat Martel. 13 Okay, George. 14 15 COMMENTS BY DEPARTMENT OF FISHERIES AND OCEANS: 16 MR. GEORGE LOW: Thank you. I'm here 17 today representing the fisheries and management section 18 of DFO and I just wanted to add my support to the plan. 19 It doesn't mention a whole lot about fisheries management 20 but what is -- what is in the plan we've worked with the 21 land planning committee and it's reflected quite well. 22 There's some minor changes we'd like to 23 make to the wording, but without -- it's not a fisheries 24 management plan, it's a management plan but without 25 protection of the land in order to development, fish

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1 would be dead in the water so. 2 We're also starting on a -- a program with 3 the Dehcho to develop a -- an aquatic resources 4 management group and it's called AERON (phonetic) and 5 we're in the last stages of developing that program, and 6 I think it'll fit in -- in wonderfully with this process 7 as well. 8 As part of that, we can look at watershed 9 management plans and fisheries management plans as well. 10 I don't know if you want me to get into 11 specifics. There are a couple of things: commercial 12 fishing, regulatory authorities will allow commercial 13 fishing on -- fishing on lakes with the support of local 14 leadership, and that's always been our stance is to work 15 with the communities for fisheries. 16 But it also adds that this statement does 17 not apply to Great Slave Lake which will continue to be 18 managed by DFO with the advice of the Great Slave Lake 19 Advisory Committee or a similar committee or board set up 20 to manage the lake as a whole. 21 Previously in the -- in the draft that you 22 have, it -- it said the management was by the Great Slave 23 Lake Advisory solely and that's not the case. 24 The DFO is still responsible for that 25 management and the Great Slave Lake Advisory Committee

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1 provides advice. 2 So we wanted to strengthen that statement 3 for you in the plan. 4 Regarding sports fishing, we're also in 5 agreement with working with the communities. It says: 6 "Regulatory authorities will address 7 community concerns about sports fishing 8 and develop a strategy to address 9 them." 10 And this replaces a statement that -- 11 sorry, that only mentioned that DFO would have meetings 12 with communities that -- we want to do -- we might want 13 to do things a little differently. 14 We're -- there will be more authority with 15 -- with the Dehcho, with the AERON program. They'll have 16 more say in -- in -- in how they want to manage the 17 fisheries in their areas. 18 So we changed it to reflect that. This 19 will include looking at information on sports quotas and 20 licences, monitoring and enforcing laws and communities 21 with concerns will be involved in the process, so those 22 are the only two (2) items that really relate to 23 fisheries management in the Territories and in the 24 Dehcho. 25 So I want to thank you for including those

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1 statements. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hmm hmm, thank you. 3 Thanks for those comments. 4 Okay, if I can ask Pat Martel to come up 5 microphone number 5. Pat Martel...? 6 Or microphone number 3. Pat Martel's a 7 former Chief of K'atlodeeche. Microphone number 3, Pat 8 Martel. 9 MR. PAT MARTEL: Mahsi. 10 11 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 12 13 COMMENTS BY MR. PAT MARTEL: 14 MR. PAT MARTEL: ...English, I speak my 15 own language, because I want to listen more better, 16 that's why we've got professional translators here, so 17 wherever there's a meeting they are there. 18 Up until now what they have talked about, 19 the last three (3) days I've been here listening to you 20 people. Yes, when you think about something that you 21 talk about, for me for about the last four (4) years, in 22 the Chief Sunrise Education Centre, I was there as a 23 cultural teacher, and the way the kids are being taught, 24 we wasn't very comfortable. 25 So what we did is that you guys get

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1 together like this and you -- we do not want the Dene 2 language to disappear, we say, and that's part of our 3 culture. But still, still with regards to when you see 4 the paper that's being ahead of you there, and you look 5 at the things that how we're going to teach our children, 6 and how we're going to teach these young children, you 7 don't see much things with regards to the Dene language 8 in there. 9 And so for me, when the Elders -- the way 10 they have taught me, I teach you the way what they have 11 taught me, that's how I speak. 12 How many of you sitting here as Chief, 13 leaders, when you talk about this education and you want 14 this -- kids to be educated, you talk to them and you 15 share with them that this is what we're doing for them, 16 and how your work, how we teach in the school, you're 17 going to benefit from it. We should be teaching this to 18 -- you should go over there, do you ever talk to them 19 like that, and you as leaders to go see the education, to 20 an education place and tell them. 21 And that's the reason why I see kids here 22 that are confused, they don't -- they don't -- nobody 23 makes presentation like that to them anymore. These are 24 the things that is a more important thing; how you 25 educate your next young generation. If you do that, and

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1 then they don't understand that how you -- why you're 2 there and whatever they're being educated, they will 3 learn how to work really thoroughly with you. 4 That's the only way we can be like we 5 look at these people that are non Dene, non Dene people 6 that are working for us can be replaced by our own Dene 7 people unless we do that. From here on going to ten (10) 8 years after I said this, if I'm still alive here, I'll 9 still be talking to you if this don't change. 10 We look at this -- look at these oil 11 companies, sure we blast them when we talk to them 12 harshly, you know, but still for me, when I hear the way 13 they present themself, they way they want to work with 14 Dene people, and it's what they want to do. But some of 15 us here were -- the way -- I rather have it my way, I 16 don't -- I don't want to look at other people how they 17 live, and we forget how the other small communities are 18 affected. 19 Even these young kids that are here, 20 there's this young -- young kid that his mother's here, 21 that new baby, that's for them that we're doing these 22 things for the next fifty/thirty (50/30) years, how is it 23 going to be for them, if we don't want to work with 24 these people? How's it going to be? 25 Our Elders, they never done that, I guess

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1 that's why look at how well we are, we still work side by 2 side with the white people, you guys want to do that from 3 hereon you better change. 4 Up until now this whole Dehcho Land Use 5 Plan that's been made, we just got together here and 6 everybody wants to put their own input in there, this is 7 the first time that I ever sat here and heard about this. 8 Some people that aren't getting the 9 information, you forget about them. They're the ones 10 that are the backbones, they're the ones that really know 11 the area, those are the ones we've forgotten and we just 12 kind of left them behind, and those are the things you've 13 got to remember. 14 Those people need to be heard too, and a 15 lot of people know that, who they are. And unless you 16 change and ask for their input, then things will get 17 better. 18 When you talk like this, when you talk, 19 you have to be careful what you say, you have to respect 20 what you say as well as to the other people, if not, then 21 you're going to have -- you will have a dispute, and 22 sometimes that happens, we don't want that to happen. 23 You want to be leader, a good leader 24 sitting there, or people you're working under, the Dene 25 people, you remember that you're representing the Dene.

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1 So that's why I thought I'll mention that, especially for 2 educating our children, that's the first thing, we have 3 to teach them our Dene language we said. 4 We have to work hard on that, to teach 5 them that. That's why I say, I mean when I speak Slavey, 6 I -- I speak Slavey so good, I guess that's why maybe my 7 people can't even hear me that good, and it's hard for 8 them to grab onto it. 9 But when you talk in Dene language and you 10 listen to what your Elders are saying, anything they talk 11 about, even though it's off the topic, we understand 12 where they're coming from, that's how well you get 13 trained. 14 You want best for your -- your kids, so 15 you bring youth or the Elders together. How many times 16 we had Elders meeting, how many times do they work with 17 the elders. I know how you guys are operating. When you 18 get Elders together, you want -- you want to use their 19 information, are you really using it? 20 But I don't see nobody here sitting 21 around a table here that is a Chief, that will sit among 22 the Elders and said, listen, I want to listen to you and 23 I want to hear your word. And I don't see -- I don't see 24 any presentation here done by the leadership from the 25 Elders, that's what also is -- you got to -- got to be

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1 careful of that. 2 When you work for the people, you have to 3 -- you've got to respect your language, you've got to 4 work on your language. You don't assume something this 5 big, you have to be sure. 6 Maybe kids that are educated -- that are 7 being educated, you have to help them, and all the other 8 Elders too, you have to make sure you give them the 9 information that's happening here, even those small kids, 10 you see them on the road, you know, you have to say 11 something to them, you know. 12 These are all the way that the Dene people 13 used to live, you guys remember that. Somebody say Dene 14 killer, you say, you're a Dene killer, but it's far away 15 from it, the way we hear things and the way we see it. 16 All this you've got to remember, if you 17 want a person to change, but you have to change also, 18 don't forget, otherwise it won't change, it will be still 19 behaving the same way the next time we sit here, we'll 20 still be -- we're still trying to help each other to make 21 it better for us. 22 I guess that's how the Elders, they talk 23 to people. 24 Yes, I've been even -- even right until 25 today, I still live off the land and I still live off the

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1 lake. I still do -- do rabbit snares, that's how a Dene 2 person lives. I love eating the food from the land. 3 Yes, I work in school, but that was last spring I work, 4 but once in a while when I work something, I still do 5 that, that's how I survive. 6 I never said I have problems. I have my 7 vehicle outside, I never said there were no gas in there, 8 my house I never said there was no, nothing to eat, 9 that's how a Dene person lives, because think about all 10 that if you want to be a Dene, do it that way. Sometimes 11 you've got to look at yourself. 12 Some people that are working for us here 13 too, they're the ones talking on our behalf. And it can 14 be we have to have our input. They work underneath us, 15 you've got to share what you're saying, it's supposed to 16 be that, for the last two (2) days I listen here, and 17 people that are talking, they want to work together they 18 say. And we say, we want to put that aside, and you have 19 to work side by side with Dene. 20 We as the Dehcho, we want to do everything 21 we can do by ourselves, if that's -- I guess that's what 22 it means, this land use planning. But if we get 23 together, and some other people come in here, how are 24 they going to try to help you -- how are they going to 25 try to help you and you trying to help them, how are they

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1 going to work together. And we start doing this thing, 2 and we don't go in other places Dehcho, how are we going 3 to survive? 4 For me, a lot of people that are sitting 5 around the table, around here, it's not -- it's going to 6 be okay for them, people like me, it's all right. But 7 for the young people that are educated, what are we 8 looking for them? That's what we've got to really think 9 about. 10 So for the last two (2) days that I 11 listened to you, yes, it sounds good sometimes, but 12 sometimes you have to remember we don't listen to other 13 people, we just figure that we're putting in our own 14 thing getting and assumption is not right. 15 One thing that's very important to us is 16 that hardly anybody talk about them. Look at this big 17 lake here; up until today I still eat fish from there; 18 since my dad's dad how he survived. Today I still eat -- 19 I still eat fish from it. 20 But nobody said nothing about that, you 21 know. Yes, I read -- I read through the paper that, I 22 know what it's saying but we have to -- got to talk about 23 it. So we need to talk about it in the future. 24 Today, we need to think about how we're 25 going to protect that big lake. There's lot of things

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1 here I would have to watch we said. You got to watch 2 fish also, don't forget. And I've been thinking about 3 that. So I need to make a statement with regards to 4 that. Especially with regards to the Great Slave Lake. 5 Our Elders know that they since -- since 6 commercial fishing started, they talked to the Dene 7 people, they had a meeting, they said that in the future 8 we're going to follow exactly how we're going to do 9 fishing. How much -- how much a quota, how it's going to 10 be, so we're going to use it and the people -- people 11 version they said. That's what they said. 12 But it's not being like that today, but 13 nobody says nothing about it. All this we have to think 14 about. So when the Elders talk to the people, this is 15 the way they talk to people. 16 When I talk to you like this, some of you 17 may be think I'm not right, or he doesn't think the Dene 18 way. But when they talk to people like this, right now 19 people get offended, they want to defend themselves; 20 that's not being a Dene person. 21 Dene person when you talk, when you hear 22 these things they think about it before they speak. And 23 maybe I might offend nobody so I better not say nothing; 24 that's the people are. They think before they speak. 25 So the way it is going right now, today,

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1 especially with regards to the oil people, oil company 2 coming to you, how they going all going to work together. 3 If we could do it, maybe them too, they're thinking that 4 way, and we here that will be good. 5 Especially for the next generation how 6 we're going to do it; we're going to have to fix it up 7 for them. We have to realize that our land who -- we got 8 to look at it, not only us you remember, it's not only 9 us. Thank you. 10 11 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDES) 12 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Daniel -- or 14 Mr. Pat Martel, sorry about that. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, good 19 presentation. 20 So now where we are in our -- Daniel. 21 (NATIVE LANGUAGE SPOKEN). Good. Number 4. Microphone 22 number 4. Daniel. 23 24 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 25

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1 COMMENTS BY MR. DANIEL SONFRERE: 2 MR. DANIEL SONFRERE: Here from the past, 3 since we started, it seems like things are getting 4 weaker. Sometimes you put something good forward and you 5 fix it really good. Everybody is really strong until 6 people start putting in their opinion then it start 7 falling apart again. 8 I don't think it happen this time. It 9 looks like everybody's in favour. It looks like 10 everybody that's in favourable, you keep that; that's 11 what it is. Thank you very much my people. It's good to 12 see that. 13 It's good that you guys are protecting our 14 land, you're protecting your people. And it's what all 15 you are doing I'm very grateful and I'm thankful for it. 16 This big massful land that we have, it's a 17 very big thing, that is very good. There's a lot of 18 important things in there and lots of important people 19 that have been buried in there too and there's a lot of 20 things in there. 21 For me, I want to win it by speaking, by 22 beating everybody. You think that way; that's not the 23 way. If you do think that way I -- I'll tell you you'll 24 never make it. 25 You can't say -- you can't make everybody

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1 happy, you know that. Even the Elders said that in the 2 past. When the Elders they talk, they see. When this 3 time happens and up until this area, it's going to -- 4 something's going to change they said. They predicted 5 that. 6 And this is happening right now. Things 7 are changing. In the past the Elders the way they were 8 they didn't have nothing. They never had tea, but some, 9 maybe. They had no medicine. 10 When I was twenty-two (22) year old, when 11 I started with my dad in the bush, we used to go in the 12 bush for about a month and we go -- we're gone. But my 13 dad -- my dad never said, Go to the hospital and get some 14 medicine; there was nothing. 15 That's how we were and that's how our 16 Elders survived. So just the Dene way, sure we know it's 17 -- we know it's -- that when -- when things started to 18 change I knew at a certain age that it was changing, I 19 knew it. 20 From there until now I can't tell you 21 exactly what has happened. But if you do work, you do 22 the right thing. I remember how you help each other, I 23 remember. So this -- this land here's a very big thing 24 Dehcho -- Dehcho land. 25 My Elder on time -- another Elder said one

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1 time, it's a very big word that he mentioned, he said 2 that if in this world if there was something going to 3 come to this land from above to here, that the people can 4 survive with and that the people can use it's not going 5 to only be for one (1) person. 6 It's going -- if this come's, something, 7 if it's good it's going to go for all the land, 8 everybody; that's what it looks like. 9 That's what an Elder said. So we may not 10 be educated in that, but we don't tell people, You're no 11 good because you're not educated, no. One day we'll know 12 but we just sit here, we can't tell you that we know it. 13 And they used to teach us that. 14 And so the way you guys are going right 15 now, I listen to you clearly. The Metis, the white, the 16 Dene, they're all together sounds good. You keep it that 17 way then you'll have a better land. 18 But if you start arguing, having dispute, 19 Yes, we have more -- we are more powerful than them, and 20 then boy, you know, the Elders said you're lost then. So 21 the way it is right now, the way you guys work, it's 22 good. 23 It's good, you know, even -- even those 24 Dene people. When our Elder first accepted the Treaty, 25 those people, they must have seen this. We have to help

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1 people, we have to protect people, we have to help them; 2 that's what we said years ago, how we're going to help 3 those that don't know these things. 4 Yes, I'm glad it got this far. You 5 finally can see that. I guess the white man when they 6 first did the Treaty, that's what they said, when Canada 7 first time met with the Dene people, that's what they 8 said. 9 I know some of the things they -- they 10 never did lie to the people. Up until now, you see what 11 we need, they don't -- they don't give us everything we 12 ask for but still they helped us in the long run. We're 13 grateful for that. 14 Now the Elders that are here, that are 15 living today, that's how they got to look at the young 16 people. As long as they're trying to do something for 17 themself, as long as they're helping each other, as long 18 as they work together, that's good enough. 19 I'm not saying I'm the boss. I'm not 20 saying this because -- but it's just that I'm telling you 21 the Elders are saying, Help each other. If you help each 22 other, your land will be must better, it will be more 23 protected. 24 But if you're not, even right now you'll 25 see different things happening. This is happening. Look

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1 at the -- look at the animals, look at the berries, 2 they're starting to disappear; you notice that? Things 3 are starting to disappear. 4 Even this massful weather; look at this 5 winter, it's really different. Why is that? Nobody 6 cannot say this was going to happen. Even that you got 7 to think about; why is it like this, why it went like 8 this? 9 So you as young people, you as young 10 people you have to work together. And that's what I hear 11 especially with this land use planning. I am very 12 grateful, thank you I'll say to you. 13 Maybe not only me, but it's just that's 14 what I hear, it is good. So you see the sun, you see the 15 way it is and you hear this kind of a -- this kind of a 16 word, everybody here you see the sunshine. That's a good 17 agreement and that's what we think and that's exactly 18 what's happening right now. 19 You guys go back to your home, whatever 20 has happened here, share it. Share it with the rest of 21 the community, think about that. I'm not saying that 22 because I'm an Elder, I am more powerful than you or more 23 educated than you; I'm not saying that. 24 Just help each other and support each 25 other and -- and work for something that you are trying

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1 to achieve even when you make a house, yeah? See how 2 long it can last if you keep it and protect it, you can't 3 keep that house a long time, That's what this is about, 4 land use planning, look after that -- that house. 5 If they're going to look for oil 6 exploration and do that, don't chase them away if you're 7 going to shut them out. No, just be careful, watch it. 8 Because it comes from long ways when we first started. 9 When things have been looked at, 10 especially with regards to Yukon, all those area they had 11 people -- people had -- had people that get money, how 12 they get money. You got to look at these things too. 13 It's a very big land we have. Maybe saw the things 14 underground, we don't know. 15 So -- so until next time you guys get 16 together I wish you the best and we don't know how we're 17 going to be, but when you get together, wherever you get 18 together, we hope to see you all there, I'll be grateful. 19 Wish you all the best and we as Elders, 20 there's not too many of us left, but still, even though 21 we're humble, we can do as much as we can. That's what 22 we're thinking. 23 We can't just leave everything, no. Got 24 to slowly and work as hard as I can, tell these people 25 and tell whatever happens to us. That's why we say,

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1 that's why we leave our words with you and that's -- 2 that's where we're at right now. And if that happens to 3 us, anything going to happen to us we can share with you. 4 So don't think I'm a person that knows 5 everything, you know, I just know that half of the 6 culture, the -- the spirituality, the tradition, I've 7 seen it right now, so I'm very glad I ate more this 8 morning and I'm very grateful that I was here for the 9 next couple of days and a lot of people shook my hand 10 even though I don't know their name. I want to thank you 11 very much. 12 13 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 14 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, 16 Daniel. Some good words, they're inspiring. Mahsi, 17 Daniel. 18 What we'd like to do is we're looking at 19 our agenda and we're looking at the clock on the wall. 20 I've been given some indication that people want to wrap 21 this meeting up, I think. 22 So I need some direction. We still have 23 the public comments from the floor. If people feel that 24 we've got enough comments, that what we could do is just 25 bring the meeting to a closure. People want to shut it

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1 down. I know we've had a long day today and yesterday so 2 if we want to we -- we could bring the meeting to a 3 close. 4 How do you feel about this? How do people 5 feel? 6 Karen...? Karen Felker, West Point? 7 Jim, Jim Antoine...? 8 Again, the question is, do you want to 9 close the meeting down or did you want to have some few 10 public comments? 11 12 COMMENTS BY CHIEF KAREN THOMAS FELKER: 13 CHIEF KAREN THOMAS FELKER: I've been 14 trying to get the attention of the Chair for the last 15 three (3) or four (4) hours to make some comments on some 16 of the presentations that were given and I'd like the 17 opportunity to do that now. 18 In October, we had a -- a meeting and 19 information session with the Canadian Minings Act here in 20 Hay River at the Ptarmigan Inn. Present were a couple of 21 chiefs who -- who were available and at this presentation 22 the Canadian Minings Act had a -- had indicated that the 23 Dehcho Land Use Plan withdrawals weren't suited for them. 24 Later on, a couple of months down the 25 road, we got some e-mails indicating that Indian and

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1 Northern Affairs had given the Canadian Minings Act the 2 permission to go exploring within the Dehcho. I had -- I 3 had caught wind of this and I spoke to our Executive 4 Director Alison, and I said the meeting that we had 5 attended, there was no mention of any of the leadership 6 agreeing for any exploration to happen in the Dehcho. 7 It's -- it's becoming apparent that even 8 though Indian and Northern Affairs are supposed to be 9 looking after First Nations' best interests, it's not 10 happening. And again, we hear from industry that came 11 and done presentations in the past couple of days they're 12 -- they're interested in exploring our lands. 13 The reason why Dehcho Land Use Plan has 14 gotten this far is that we got direction from the Elders. 15 We got input from all community members, communities of 16 the Dehcho; that's how we got to where -- where we are 17 today. 18 I would still like to see my great- 19 grandchildren walk on this -- this land of ours and still 20 do the things that some of us still practice today; set a 21 net where you want, set a trap or where you want, set a 22 snare where you want, without having to ask anybody 23 whether or not we have permission to do so. 24 We hear that industry wants us to 25 accommodate them for their needs. Speaking with some of

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1 our Elders in our community of West Point and also some 2 of the Elders within our region of Dehcho, the comments 3 that are made from the Elders are saying: 4 We've survived this long without oil and 5 gas, we've survived this long without any golds and 6 diamonds being dug out of our lands, I'm pretty sure that 7 our great-grandchildren and children behind them can 8 survive without them too. Mahsi. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Karen. 10 Jim Antoine and then followed by the young 11 lady there next to Jonas Antoine, Ms. Sabourin, I believe 12 it is? Yes. 13 MR. JIM ANTOINE: Mahsi, Herb. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Jim...? 15 MR. JIM ANTOINE: It's a public comment, 16 just... 17 18 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 19 20 COMMENTS BY MR. JIM ANTOINE: 21 MR. JIM ANTOINE: We have been -- we have 22 been meeting here for three (3) days and I've been 23 listening to you guys, all those Elders -- Elders, the 24 people and the mining companies, they've been talking 25 about the environment group. And I've been listening to

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1 all the presentators [sic] and -- and what you're -- what 2 you're working on. It's a big thing -- big thing that 3 you're working on, that land use planning. 4 From now since -- what we're all -- what 5 all those comments that have been given I've been 6 listening to. Some of those communities are not too 7 about what is happening. Some of them are trying to -- 8 some of them have been picking information from -- from 9 their communities for their land use so. The Federal 10 Government too, what they're saying is that we are still 11 working on it too. 12 They are saying the Federal Government, 13 I'm thinking about them, what they -- they're all changed 14 now so the -- what's going to happen. I don't know what 15 is going to happen. How they're going to become a 16 government, I don't know. And how they're going to be 17 helping us on -- on this and if we're going to present 18 this to the Federal Government, I don't know what's going 19 to happen then. 20 So I understand what everybody's saying 21 here and I agree with them but I -- I like what 22 everybody's -- how we're going to protect that land and 23 how Elders have started all this, what the Elders have 24 said in the past and that we're all standing on it and 25 it's stronger now.

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1 Even the oil -- oil company, the mining 2 company too, they're all -- they're thinking about all 3 those stuff that are in our land so. Even mining too, 4 there are -- there are still a lot of minerals in our 5 land so they want to -- they want to develop our land. 6 So where it's going to go we don't know. So we have to 7 think about all those things. 8 On our land too, the Mackenzie Valley and 9 Resource, they seem to be boss of our land so. There is 10 going to be change of ministers so we have to think about 11 all those things too. We -- if we think about all those 12 things it's -- it's going to be a -- a huge thing that we 13 are going to be thinking about. 14 There's other things. What I'm thinking 15 about is it's not -- not really finished yet, I think. 16 All those people that have been doing we -- we still have 17 to get answers from other people and that's what I want 18 to say today. There's -- there's a lot of people that 19 still live in -- in -- if we collected information from 20 everybody in Fort Simpson and that and then all the 21 communities on how we're going to do it and the Chief and 22 Councillors. And it is on them to do all this work so 23 they have to inform all the people in their communities. 24 So maybe they could collect everything from their 25 community -- their community people and -- and maybe they

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1 could change all the things that if we could change 2 things on that land use planning. That's what I'm 3 thinking about. 4 By the end of March it's going to be 5 complete so. Though -- if we're going to keep meeting it 6 doesn't seem like it's -- it's all finished yet. But if 7 we put another year into it maybe it will -- it will 8 sound better; that's what I'm thinking about. If there's 9 not enough money for it, maybe we could ask for more 10 money to complete this -- this thing. If there's money 11 put -- put on it for it it could give us one (1) more 12 year to work on this and look at it; that's what I'm 13 thinking about. 14 So -- so that's what the people are saying 15 about this thing. So what's going to happen in the 16 future we don't know. One (1) -- one (1) month, two (2) 17 months, one (1) year, two (2) years, we don't know what's 18 going to happen in -- in those time frames. So all those 19 people that are -- are working on the -- I would like to 20 thank all those people that are on the Land Use 21 Committee. They -- they have worked real hard on that -- 22 on that project. 23 So it's not finished yet but if we're 24 going to change some things in there, if we're going to - 25 - we have to put it forward before we change it. We have

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1 to all look at it and talk about it before we change 2 things. 3 So that's what I'm thinking about, that 4 public comment if you said so, that's what I'm saying. I 5 want to say something in English too. 6 7 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 8 9 MR. JIM ANTOINE: First of all, I 10 thank the members of the Committee for the work you've 11 done to-date. It's a big task that you've undertook 12 since the IMA and in about four (4) years since that time 13 I believe a lot of work has gone into it and I've got to 14 commend you for that. 15 And as a member of the public, sitting in 16 the back for the last three (3) days and listening to all 17 the chiefs and the Metis leaders make their different 18 comments from your communities, listen to the Territory 19 Government, the Federal Government, oil and gas, mining, 20 environmental representatives, the different 21 environmental group representatives, and just public 22 comments from Elders and different leaders. 23 And -- and so first of all the -- I have 24 to throw my support behind this plan here. This 25 strategy, I think it's a good one for the Dehcho.

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1 And that the other good thing about it is 2 that it brought all the people here together, all the 3 different leaders and different representation here from 4 the Dehcho as well as government and industry. And it's 5 -- it's good. This is -- for me it's like democracy in 6 the works so this is -- this is our country and this is 7 how things should be done. 8 But I think, from the comments I heard 9 from different representation from the different leaders 10 from the communities, every community is different from 11 each other in Dehcho. And some of the communities have 12 done a lot of work in the traditional knowledge area, 13 they've identified every point along the lake or little 14 creek in their own languages and so forth. So a lot of 15 extensive work has happened in some communities. 16 And others, what I hear, haven't done 17 that, so I think I hear that we need to do that in some 18 communities. 19 As for the territorial and Federal 20 Government, I understand that some of the policies and 21 legislation, this plan kind of overlaps into some of 22 those areas. So having been in the Legislative Assembly 23 in the Northwest Territories, a lot of work requires to 24 change or amend any legislation that exists there. You 25 look at like four (4) years and you look at the Wildlife

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1 Act that's been there for twenty (20) years; it hasn't 2 changed. 3 So you're looking at every aspect of the - 4 - all the legislation and they're saying that we've got 5 to look at these things carefully. And if we're going to 6 do it then we should do it right because we have one (1) 7 shot at it. 8 And -- and so -- so there's a timing 9 aspect of it, and I understand that, and same thing with 10 the federal legislation, Federal Government. 11 And the Federal Government, for me, is the 12 wild card here because of the recent election of a 13 Conservative Government. We don't know exactly how 14 they're going to deal with us in the Dehcho and all the 15 aspects and -- and how they're position on Aboriginal 16 Governments and this whole exercise is going to be. 17 And I hear that in the comments of the 18 federal representation where they said they have a new 19 minister and then they have to put a plan before him that 20 is going to be acceptable to him. So I don't know what 21 that means. So that whole aspect I'm -- I'm concerned 22 about. 23 As for industry, oil and gas and the 24 mining sector, they -- they -- that's what they do. 25 That's -- that's their -- that's their area of expertise

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1 and what I'm hearing is, you know, we -- we need to hear 2 reality of where the heck they're coming from because 3 that's what we're dealing with. 4 You know, we didn't -- I don't expect them 5 to come here and say really nice things that -- that is 6 not the truth for them, I -- I expect to hear hardcore, 7 you know, positions of what they expect from the Dehcho 8 lands because our lands are very rich, the oil and gas is 9 there, the -- the minerals are there. And the mining 10 companies, that's their business, they want to find a way 11 to go in there and -- and extract the resources. 12 And I hear what they expect from changes 13 in the plans. I understand that, but how do we -- how do 14 we look at the balance of conservation and resource 15 development? That is what you've got to look at. 16 So you've also got to look at economic 17 development in the Dehcho. We have a lot of young people 18 that are going to school. We're encouraging them to 19 finish school and so forth. And where are they going to 20 go? You know where are they going to go for employment 21 and to make a living, and where the businesses are going 22 to -- to work in the area? 23 So that has to be a balance there, you've 24 got to look at both sides. And so for me, I guess the 25 point I'm trying to make here is that in listening to all

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1 this, what I'm hearing is that we need more time. We 2 need more resources. 3 What I'm interested in is what -- what's 4 going to happen? Is the territorial government going to 5 come with of some dollars, or the Federal Government's 6 going to come with of some dollars to continue this work 7 beyond March, or is March the final deadline and we're 8 going to go with what we've got? 9 So all the concerns I hear -- hear I -- I 10 think it requires a lot of work in -- in everybody's 11 backyard and -- and how are we going to accommodate all 12 these different concerns? 13 So I think every concern that is here is 14 important and that it should be taken into consideration 15 in how you try to accommodate all this, because this is 16 it. 17 People don't like the Mackenzie Valley 18 Resource Management Act but, you know, we've got to be 19 careful that this plan that we're putting in place to 20 replace it, is it going to be any better or is it going 21 to be more restrictive or -- or worse? 22 You know, so -- so this is what we've got 23 to do here as the Dene people, are we putting ourself 24 into a situation where we're restricting ourself too 25 much.

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1 So all these questions are there and the - 2 - the final comment is that I've been around quite a bit 3 in the political field. I know that any time you 4 instigate a change, if you change something there is 5 always a lot of unanticipated little problems that creep 6 in to the -- into the whole mix. 7 So I don't expect everybody to try to 8 figure all these different little things that are going 9 to creep in and cause problems down the line, but that -- 10 that happens, that's the reality of what you're dealing 11 with, change. 12 And this is a big one, this is a huge, 13 huge change that we're looking at. And -- and, again, 14 I'm saying that it's a big challenge for all of us to -- 15 to try to take what was said here today and move on. So 16 I'm just curious about what the next steps are going to 17 be and so I'd like to -- like to thank all of you for 18 your time. Mahsi. Thank you. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Jim. 20 There's a young lady there, can she introduce herself and 21 go ahead. 22 23 COMMENTS BY MS. RITA SABOURIN: 24 MS. RITA SABOURIN: Hello. I'm Rita 25 Sabourin. My parents are Henry and Leonie (phonetic)

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1 Sabourin. I am the youth delegate. I'm from Fort 2 Providence. 3 And I'd like say thank you very much to 4 everyone, because over the past few days I have learned a 5 lot. And I'm very glad that there's so much people in 6 the Dehcho that care about our culture because I feel the 7 same thing, I feel the same way. 8 And I'm very grateful that there's so many 9 leaders that care about the land and stuff because I 10 think it's very important in the future, and everything's 11 very important. And I'm very glad that I'm Dene because 12 my grandparents live -- live on the land most of the 13 time, and my parents too, and I'm very glad that they're 14 -- I have them because I have learned so much about my 15 culture and I'm very glad that I'm Dene. 16 And being here today makes me learn a lot 17 and I'm going to pass everything I learned onto the peers 18 at home and notify all the teenagers because this is very 19 important and I can't wait to go back home and tell them 20 how much I learned. Thank you. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 22 Chief Stan Sanguez, Jean Marie River? 23 24 COMMENTS BY CHIEF STANLEY SANGUEZ: 25 CHIEF STANLEY SANGUEZ: It's -- I think

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1 you seem to want to find directions on what's going to 2 happen from here. There are some -- still some items 3 that, like the land -- land use discussions on oil and 4 gas and forestry. 5 I'd like to recommend that we still 6 continue on with the discussions, not at the table 7 because it seems like some communities still need to do 8 some work on oil and gas and mining and forestry, even 9 our community. 10 I'd like to suggest is that this -- this 11 discussion still continue on with the oil and gas, the 12 Federal Government, the Territorial Government because it 13 seems like we still need to do some work. 14 I wouldn't mind asking from -- from the 15 committee itself, like Jim was saying, what is our next 16 step within the next few months? If we could get that 17 from you then, at least, even us, our community in Jean 18 Marie, we've still got to do some work on -- especially 19 on forestry. 20 We don't want to leave ourself out, and it 21 may be the future in oil and gas. These are the things 22 that we need to discuss at home and I want to recommend 23 that the communities that keep saying that our community 24 weren't consulted really good enough, get your people out 25 there.

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1 We did our work at home, now this is where 2 we come to the eleventh hour here, get your people out 3 there. If you have to tell them that there's a free 4 feast, then do that. I think Dave is willing to set some 5 money towards that, because it's -- it's good. 6 I mean, I'm not in a rush -- we're not in 7 a rush to go home. But, you know, these are the good 8 topics on oil and gas, Committee members. I suggest that 9 discussions is still going to happen in the next four (4) 10 to five (5) months at the community level. 11 Hopefully, the leadership and the Elders 12 bring this at home and make it feel like it is the 13 eleventh hour and we need to get our people really back 14 on track on this land use planning because we did our 15 work as TK which Margaret Ireland had helped our 16 community with -- with industry. 17 And now with this pipeline stuff I got 18 former Chief Fred Norwegian helping our community 19 understand through these -- the guidelines program. 20 With that I'd like to say mahsi. And it 21 feels like we're doing the closing comments here and I'm 22 just trying to figure what directions is going on here. 23 Thanks. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thank you. Just 25 to make things clear, I think the Chair himself has said

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1 that, Do you want to continue in the discussions; you 2 have four (4) different other items that you may want to 3 finish today. If not, where are we going? If not, we'll 4 just do general discussions and closing comments. 5 So it's -- it's your forum. In regards to 6 next steps, I think those next steps, discussions, will 7 happen through the executive directors and so on, so 8 hopefully we can cure a lot of things. 9 Chief Roy Fabian, K'atlodeeche...? 10 11 COMMENTS BY CHIEF ROY FABIAN: 12 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Yeah, just -- I just 13 want to make a comment about, you know, the direction the 14 meeting should go. My feeling is we spent the last three 15 (3) days here listening to each other and talking to the 16 industry, the Government and to ourselves about, you 17 know, how we see the plan going. 18 And then, you know, there are, like, you 19 know, some concerns regarding -- you know, some 20 communities are not ready and I'm really surprised, you 21 know, to hear that. 22 You know, considering that we were 23 probably one of the last communities to begin working on 24 our land use plan and we went through the process and, 25 you know, I feel comfortable with, you know, the work

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1 that we have done. 2 So I hate to see us just break up the 3 meeting here and not having given, you know, any 4 direction to the land, you know, the Land Use Committee - 5 - the Land Use Planning Committee. 6 We need to give them some direction and, 7 you know, where we want to see them go. And, yeah, you 8 know, like for me there -- you know, there are the 9 industry and -- and, you know, the Government are going 10 to have concerns, but we expected them. We didn't think 11 they would come here without concerns. 12 And -- but at the same time, you know, 13 this is -- like I stated before, us, we're -- we never 14 had this opportunity to ever do this before, where we're 15 going to draw the lines on how we see development 16 happening on -- on -- on our land, and here we've done 17 that. 18 And we know that the industry's going to 19 try to do it -- they want to do it as cheaply as possible 20 so they can make as much money for their -- for their 21 people, as much as possible, and the Government too. 22 You know -- and, you know, like my opinion 23 is that the Government is pro-development so, you know, 24 they -- they don't want to see anything hinder 25 development, you know, in the Northwest Territories. So

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1 they're going to have concerns. 2 So, I'd like to see us continue on until 3 we, you know, have an opportunity to make some decisions 4 here on how -- what direction we're going to go. If we 5 close off the meeting, like, I am tired, you know, like 6 it's been a long day for me, a long week. But still I'm 7 willing to continue working until we get a chance to give 8 some direction to the committee. 9 Along with that, I'd like to also invite 10 up Celine Bugghins who wanted to make some general 11 comments. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Go ahead there, Roy. 13 And after that we'll have Richard Lafferty. 14 15 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 16 17 COMMENTS BY MS. CELINE BUGGHINS: 18 MS. CELINE BUGGHINS: Ever since this 19 meeting has started it has been good -- there has been 20 some good speakers. Some spoke from their heart. All 21 those kids are -- all those kids that are be living after 22 us we're thinking about all those -- our kids and so my 23 husband died from cancer. I have a lot of -- I have a 24 lot of kids that are living with me but -- but now that I 25 get -- now that I get -- now that I have my pension I buy

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1 them -- I buy things for them on my pension. 2 Everything is -- the Creator put 3 everything on this earth. We have to pray for it with 4 our heart. It is a big thing so we have to -- we have to 5 pray for it. If you work on it really good it won't be 6 hard for you. 7 I'm sad at some times but -- but I pray. 8 But I pray with my heart. I'm thankful to the Creator 9 for putting me on this earth and giving me everything 10 that I have. I'm thankful for my children and I pray. 11 If we're going -- I'm going to survive on this -- if 12 we're -- if we're arguing about this land, we have to 13 quit that. 14 We are all happy to be living on this 15 land. It is the Creator that put us here on this land. 16 We have to have respect for it. We have lived on this 17 land us Dene people, the kids, Elders, just like we're 18 all holding hands and we -- we work together and we won't 19 be hearing all this arguments. 20 We have to all work together. So today we 21 have to pray for all that in order to work together. I'd 22 like to -- I'd like to pray for all those people that are 23 travelling. I'd like to thank everybody for -- I know 24 it's a very important thing that we're talking about. 25 If we -- we all gather here again one day

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1 I'd like to -- if we're going work on this important 2 things like this we are working for my mother and my 3 father who have passed on. If we -- if we -- we pray in 4 this way anyway it won't be hard for us. Even though I 5 don't know paper we're not to be on top of everybody or 6 boss of anybody. 7 We have to thing about all those things 8 when we work on these things. I would like to thank all 9 -- all of you, my relatives. I would like to thank you 10 for all travelling here. 11 Even though we are sad and that for every 12 -- we have to -- we're working for all those -- our 13 children and our children's children and the Elders 14 around us. 15 So I would like to be thankful. I'd like 16 to thank you all for being here. Thank you. 17 18 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 19 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Richard Lafferty, Deh 21 Gah Got'ie Metis Local. 22 23 COMMENTS BY MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: 24 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: My comments are 25 just with respect to what we do now. When you look at

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1 the -- the agenda for today which we didn't get to. We 2 finished up yesterday's agenda just recently. 3 I think, you know, in the context of going 4 over the presentations by the governments and the 5 industry that were here and also our own discussions 6 around the plan itself we've covered off most of those 7 areas that would have been discussed today. 8 But more importantly, I think we opened 9 our own eyes and the eyes of all those guests and people 10 that were with us about -- about, you know, how important 11 this is and what needs to be done and I also just want to 12 reflect back to the Indian Affairs presentation. 13 Under their "next steps point two (.2)" is 14 they recognize that it may require the Committee to 15 continue the work beyond March 31st and that additional 16 resources may be required. 17 And then in their conclusions as well they 18 -- they commit to doing their part to assist the 19 committee to create a plan that will be supported by all. 20 So I think we should wrap it up here and 21 look to the Feds to follow through in the commitments in 22 their presentation and perhaps plan a similar conference 23 more focussed on the -- on the specific items that -- 24 that were, you know, huge topics of debate and also focus 25 in on the -- on the gaps that were recognized by the

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1 various presenters and speakers and bring the meeting to 2 a close; that would be my recommendation. Mahsi. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mahsi there, Richard. 4 Thank you very much. That was our same thoughts here as 5 a board. There has been comments made in regards to the 6 different issues, oil and gas, forestry, agriculture, 7 tourism and so on. So most of the discussions have been 8 covered. 9 The presentations have been made so I 10 guess where we're at right now is basically doing general 11 discussions, closing remarks and I guess what the next 12 steps are I guess the executive director would comment on 13 those, of what our next steps are and we only take 14 directions from -- from the leadership and what are -- 15 for me as a board member, what are your next steps? 16 So I need -- I need the question answered 17 myself as a board member. Other comments? 18 Michael Neyelle, councillor, Pehdzeh Ki 19 Deh First Nation. 20 21 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 22 23 COMMENTS BY MR. MICHAEL NEYELLE: 24 MR. MICHAEL NEYELLE: We have met here 25 for three (3) -- three (3) days. I seen that we have

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1 been talking about very important thing here. That paper 2 that's in front of us here we have to talk about it-- on 3 it so the Wrigley people here only now they have 4 selected us as councillors -- they elected us as 5 councillors. I don't know what's going to happen in the 6 future; that's what they put on the paper. 7 In the future we cannot say yes to this 8 paper yet. What -- if we -- we work on it in the future 9 and they would say yes to it. They haven't done a real 10 good job on that paper there, that work on that land use. 11 If we met again in assembly and than we 12 talk about it during that assembly we could -- if we -- 13 we come in and gather at that assembly and then we meet 14 there then we could say if we talk on it again during 15 that assembly maybe we could all agree to it once we -- 16 there's lot of things that I read on that paper. 17 There's some things that I don't agree with on that --on 18 these paper. 19 We have to change some things on it. Us 20 people in Wrigley we're going to be changing some things 21 on there. The way I was raised was by my dad. How we 22 have survive in the bush hunting and trapping; my dad had 23 taught me all this stuff and that's how you be a Dene 24 person. 25 When you shoot -- when you shoot something

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1 you cut it up and you know that you're going to have to 2 pay the land. 3 But we, as a new people, a new generation, 4 it's hard for them to grab onto that. It's not being 5 practised. I guess that's the reason why we have this 6 place -- this in place so that we can work hard on this 7 Land Use Planning. Thank you very much. 8 9 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 10 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: William Petthali -- or 12 Phillip Petthali. 13 14 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 15 16 COMMENTS BY MR. PHILLIP PETTHALI: 17 MR. PHILLIP PETTHALI: ...the way people 18 talk about themselves and the way they talk about things, 19 it's a very big issue. Yes, we know it is. 20 Sometimes you speed up your mind because 21 of that when you think about fast, you -- when you think 22 about there being a white person, it makes fast, when you 23 think about -- when you think about money, sometimes you 24 get in trouble. 25 So these are the things that you look

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1 about, or you think about when you do, but if it's not 2 that we're disagreeing with each other or arguing with 3 each other, it's just that we know what's going to happen 4 in the future. We need to know that, we need to see 5 that. 6 And so, thank you very much that I've been 7 here that long and listen to people, and people that are 8 with us, I am very glad that they are here with me, but 9 we are going to be leaving pretty soon, but we just 10 wanted to say thank you, the way the people that have sat 11 with us, when I was in Kakisa, I used be there too but -- 12 but now I feel much better, because we're Acho Dene Koe 13 we are. 14 We always look at -- we look at the 15 boundaries between the Yukon, the BC, and we think about 16 the overlap issues, so we think about that, and there's 17 about four hundred (400) of us, or eight hundred (800) of 18 us in the community and now every day we have different 19 people go out into different areas and go to the group. 20 And there is a lot of people there, a lot 21 of young people, and a lot of the young people they go to 22 school too, they are educated. 23 And that's the reason why when we talk 24 about our land when I come over here, I think about that, 25 I think about when I talk to young people in school.

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1 Even right now they say, this young girl that spoke, 2 she's right, you know. 3 When you are going to pick something fast, 4 you can't -- you got to be careful and, but, you know, 5 like you have to also make sure that you mind's not fast 6 when you do something. 7 The young people when they want to -- want 8 to go into education, they are being educated fast, and 9 they want to get through schooling, it's true, it's good, 10 but then you have to -- you have to understand how being 11 a Dene, that's what you need to know. 12 So I'm glad I'm here to share this with 13 you that I hear some people talking about that boy, it 14 makes me feel good when I hear things that, especially 15 with a clear mind. 16 Yes, in the future what are we going to 17 do? What's going to be happening to us? What's going to 18 come to it? We'll see it, but we're just barely seeing 19 it now, but it will come out. 20 And maybe about when -- when the 21 springtime comes and then summertime comes, we will 22 probably come out and there's still -- there's still -- 23 you can see a little bit of sun yet. 24 That's why I'm thankful that you're here, 25 your Grandfather's land this is it, that's why you talk

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1 about. 2 Me when I think about the past about when 3 -- when I was -- when I was a young person my dad used to 4 drive me around with a dog team -- I remember that. Up 5 until now, from there up until now, people start using 6 vehicles and you -- you don't see no more dog team. 7 And today all that change happening. Even 8 this young girl that spoke, she said, next time I want to 9 -- if it gets to be my age I wonder how will it be for 10 her? And so it's good to hear these things from the 11 young people that they're concerned, very concerned. 12 And I wish you all the best and I wish you 13 -- wish you the best and to whatever you guys put on as 14 one (1), you have to really -- you have to do that and 15 work towards it. So I will say that much for now. Thank 16 you very much. 17 18 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 19 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mahsi, Phillip. 21 Okay, with that we will close those 22 comments and we will proceed with Heidi here and try and 23 explain to you the next steps of the Committee, and then 24 we will have Closing Remarks from the Committee after 25 that.

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1 And then we will have a Prayer with the 2 drums, I think, that they wanted. 3 4 CLOSING COMMENTS BY MS. HEIDI WIEBE: 5 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Thank you, Chairman. 6 Obviously there's a lot of questions about our next steps 7 and we've also been giving this some thought. 8 We recognize that there are many different 9 views out there about land uses, what's appropriate and 10 what's not. And also about what a land use plan should 11 look that. And we're heard those comments over the last 12 three (3) days. 13 The Committee is committed to continuing 14 to advance the plan through discussions and revisions 15 with communities, with governments, with other planning 16 partners. And there certainly will be more talks, 17 especially with some of the communities that we've 18 initiated some discussions with this week outside of the 19 forum. 20 The Committee will carefully consider all 21 of the comments that we've received over the last few 22 months through the information sessions, through written 23 submissions and also here at the Regional Forum. 24 There's been a lot of really good input 25 provided that we will go through very carefully. We will

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1 be revising the land use plan as we've stated all along 2 based on these comments as required to ensure that we 3 achieve and advance the goals of this region. 4 And over the next few weeks, the Committee 5 will be taking into consideration the comments and the 6 work ahead of us to determine exactly what our next steps 7 will be. Obviously we can't make those decisions today 8 and we can't give firm timelines that will be up for 9 discussions as we go through the priorities and identify 10 the work that has to be done to ensure the plan will meet 11 the needs of the region. 12 And once we've made those decisions, we 13 will be bringing them back to the communities and our 14 planning partners, you know, through our regular 15 communications channels, phone calls, e-mails, that sort 16 of thing. 17 So we can't give you definitive answers 18 but there will be revisions, there will be continuing 19 discussions and we will be working with everybody who has 20 been involved in this process to ensure that we create 21 the plan that will work for the region. 22 Thank you, mahsi. 23 24 CLOSING COMMENTS BY THE CHAIRPERSON: 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that and

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1 I hope that's understood by the leadership and the 2 delegation here of what the next steps are. We're not 3 very certain ourself. And it all depends on funding and 4 -- and having our next meeting. 5 I know the leadership has a meeting next 6 month, you know, and they're going to gather together and 7 maybe can discuss the next steps and probably help in 8 that area. 9 I'm just going to use closing comments and 10 actually use the language -- my language as best as 11 possible. 12 13 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 14 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much to 16 everybody that are here. I am very glad this has since 17 2001, I used to be the Chief and they asked me to sit on 18 these committee with them since 2001 so I did that after 19 I'm saying from being a Chief. 20 I know I hear people, the young people, 21 the Elders, all the community here, I hear them what 22 they're saying, what they've given us. The statement 23 that they've given us. It's all on paper now. It's all 24 being recorded. All the people here that were here, that 25 have worked for us here. Even those to what you guys

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1 say, what is being recorded because and it's going to be 2 kept, that's what it's for. 3 So when you speak what you think about, 4 don't be afraid, don't by shy. Even like that young 5 person that spoke, be like that, you know, you've got to 6 be like that. Them, how they think, when they -- when 7 they don't say nothing, it's going to be harder for them. 8 Then they'll probably think, Gee, I should have said 9 that, huh? 10 And now this is a very big thing that we 11 worked on, it's not only for today, remember. It's for 12 as long as we can -- as long as we have our children and 13 their children and our grandfather that put us into this 14 world. 15 How they want us to work. That's how 16 we're going to do it even if we can't fix it that way. 17 That's why we're sitting here. And that's the reason why 18 we worked this hard on it. 19 20 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 21 22 MR. CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, everyone, for 23 being here today and I give thanks to the leadership for 24 appointing me probably in 2001 and I had an opportunity 25 to represent the region at the Board level.

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1 And I personally myself have learnt a lot 2 from the people and I've also learnt a lot from the 3 Committee Members here and the staff that I've been able 4 to work with. 5 It's once in a lifetime you get this 6 opportunity. With my education in the white man's world 7 doesn't mean very much but, you know, I'm quite fortunate 8 I've been -- I went through a lot of teachers over the 9 past thirty (30) years, you know, like Paul Wright and I 10 still gain knowledge through these sessions. 11 Whether I don't care what colour you are, 12 you know, whatever you're able to share your thoughts and 13 your aspirations. Well I take that in, absorb it and 14 trying to use it to the best of our advantage as a 15 people. 16 But I'm personally myself, I'm from the 17 Sahtu and I'll always be from the Sahtu. I don't know 18 very much about the Dehcho. I wasn't raised, I never 19 trapped up here, you know, I wasn't born up here but I 20 understand your aspirations and trying to bring it to the 21 forefront of governments and industry of what your 22 thoughts and needs are, are very important. 23 So that's how I take -- I've always taken 24 my position whether I've been in leadership or not. It's 25 just bringing the information forward so the people can

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1 make some sound decisions that you need to make. 2 But I was given an opportunity to 3 participate. Like I said, I don't --- you don't work for 4 me as a Committee member. I only work for you and 5 whatever you're able to provide, hopefully we're able to 6 put it into writing. 7 And a lot of times we have to leave a 8 paper trail like Rita Cli, former Chief of Liidli Kue 9 have always said, it's leaving paper trail behind so the 10 future generation can carry on what we're doing here. 11 Other than that, you know, it's been a 12 great week, tiresome, lot of discussions and I thank each 13 and every one of you for participating and sharing your 14 thoughts and your aspirations with each other. 15 I would like to thank all the 16 participants, the presenters, special guests, especially 17 Joe and our translators up there I think they're pretty 18 well dehydrated this afternoon here. Do you want to give 19 them a good hand? 20 Yeah. And also just to keep our energy up 21 and so on, going to the bathroom back and forth, you 22 know, I'd like to thank the catering, the cooks and 23 everybody that's provided lunch, lunches and snacks for 24 us over this week. It was great. 25 The staff were, you know, cleaning up, you

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1 know, I always forget the janitor, you know, that's the 2 last guy that's always in the closet room all the time. 3 You know, those guys, you know, they very well set up, 4 they clean every day and you know, we got to thank them 5 also is keeping the atmosphere clean and you know, so the 6 meeting can continue every day. 7 Last but not least, is Chief Roy Fabian, 8 his council, his Elders and his people as a whole for 9 continuously to invite us onto the Reserve and the 10 hospitality has been great continuously. 11 You know, even myself I haven't drummed 12 for over a year, haven't really sat and sang a song. But 13 Grandpa was with me the other night so it really felt 14 good to get back with the guys again and be able to, you 15 know -- when I played drum this is for all of us here to 16 collectively work together and that's the only way that 17 we ever talk about our future generation. 18 You know, it don't matter what colour we 19 are, you know, there is always going to be people after 20 us. And hopefully they can make a better life for 21 themselves instead of the struggles that we're in. 22 So -- and a lot of times I see the things 23 that we're doing, what the residential school done to us. 24 So we're just passing it on. So we need to quit that. 25 But other than that, it's been great. And

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1 oh, yes, there's always somebody. You know this guy 2 here, some of these guys, they keep a lot of this 3 information and I guess as the paper trail, the sounds 4 and the transcriptions that are done, you know they keep 5 all that information for us so I'd like to thank them for 6 keeping the instruments, the technology they talk about 7 going. So... 8 Other than that I don't have very much to 9 say so that's as much as I'm going to say today until 10 next year. Yeah, we'll have closing prayer if my 11 colleagues down the table here don't have any closing 12 remarks? Oh, yeah. Yeah, okay. 13 Ron Antoine, GWT representative -- GNWT 14 representative. 15 16 CLOSING COMMENTS BY MR. RON ANTOINE: 17 MR. RON ANTOINE: Hello. I'd like to 18 just say a few words regarding the plan. 19 For me to be part of this process gives me 20 great honour to sit among the leaders because I live in a 21 world of -- I live in two (2) worlds. 22 My father was a Co'indee (phonetic) for 23 thirty-five (35) years and he worked with government. A 24 lot of Elders around the table know him and today there's 25 a lot of respect.

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1 For -- for me to be part of this process 2 is an honour because I am a recipient of the Dehcho 3 lands, this area and also I work as a Co'indee for the 4 government. So when I look at this process I look at the 5 land and the animals, the water, the plants, everything. 6 And for me that's important as an individual. 7 A lot of people were wondering when I was 8 going to speak because they say I work for the government 9 and I've got to keep my mouth shut but today there are 10 some people out there that say speak from the heart and I 11 speak from my heart because I'm proud to be a Dene. 12 I'm proud to be from this region and I'm 13 also proud that people like yourselves gather as one to 14 ensure that we get the best possible regions of -- of 15 this land. 16 And I'd like to thank all of you for 17 participating in this. Like I said, I'm honoured to be 18 here. Mahsi cho. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Just before we 20 go on to Petr I have an Elder -- an Elder that would like 21 to do closing comments so we need to respect that. 22 So we'll have Elsie Marcellais do -- has a 23 few words. 24 25

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1 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 2 3 CLOSING COMMENTS BY MS. ELSIE MARCELLAIS: 4 MS. ELSIE MARCELLAIS: I was very 5 interested in hearing everybody speaking. I -- I'm happy 6 to talk for us, very good. They said -- they said we 7 were going to have a meeting here so they told us to come 8 with them. I see -- I'm happy to see all my relatives 9 here and I'd like to -- like to come with them. I don't 10 like being alone. 11 I like travelling around to the 12 communities and my -- my daughter -- my daughter too got 13 sick on me and in the morning I got up. I'm thankful to 14 the Creator for getting up in the morning. 15 Now they've gone to Yellowknife and they 16 brought her to Yellowknife with their vehicle. Then now 17 they have brought her back to Nahanni so I'm very 18 thankful. 19 It is a very important thing that we're 20 talking about here. I'm very -- I'm always thinking 21 about the water when we talk about these things, even 22 Regina Falls too and those animals that are going around 23 there and everything depends on the water so we have to 24 have respect for it even if it goes down to Simpson, to 25 Wrigley. It goes way down to the Arctic Ocean.

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1 So even though they -- even though we -- 2 we drink that water it's very good, tastes good when we 3 drink it. I'm very thankful when we talk about 4 protecting all that land and the water and all that. 5 I'm thankful to all the cooks, to all the 6 -- I'd like to thank all those people that -- that gave 7 us rides to the meetings and that and I'm very thankful 8 for being here, for all those people that are here among 9 us. 10 And I'd like -- I'd like to say thank you 11 to all those people and have a safe trip home and to all 12 those people that are travelling. That is all I want to 13 say to you people here. Thank you. 14 15 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good ahead, Petr. 18 Petr Cizek, representative of the Dehcho 19 First Nation. 20 21 CLOSING COMMENTS BY MR. PETR CIZEK: 22 MR. PETR CIZEK: It's great to see 23 Gillian here who I first met twelve (12) years ago when 24 I showed up in Simpson for the first time in 1993 and got 25 into this business of mapping and planning twelve (12)

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1 years ago. It's a long, long road. 2 At some point we've come up with a bunch 3 of products over the years, the Interim Measures 4 Agreement, the Interim Land Withdrawals, the Edehzhie 5 protected area. 6 The beauty of working in the Dehcho is 7 that the Dehcho produces. We don't keep spinning our 8 wheels here, we keep producing. We don't quite know what 9 we're going to do next but one (1) thing I can guarantee 10 you is that there will be another product very soon. 11 And the main reason we're able to keep 12 doing this and keep giving you new products, new maps is 13 thanks to our outstanding staff who have brought together 14 another incredible forum the second time and I'd like the 15 staff to stand up, Heidi, Monika, Priscilla, Sophie and 16 Paul. If you would all stand up and give them a giant 17 round of applause. 18 And thank you, thank you all and we'll 19 have something, we'll be meeting with you and we'll have 20 something for you all very soon. We don't when but we'll 21 be talking about that as a committee tomorrow. Mahsi 22 cho. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 24 Mahsi. 25 Okay. With that can we have some drummers

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1 up front there to do closing prayers? Oh, sorry, I've 2 got to back up again. 3 I'm getting that moolah system. I'm 4 really in a rush here but you know when you follow papers 5 like that, so Adrian Boyd, Federal Representative. 6 7 CLOSING COMMENTS MR. ADRIAN BOYD: 8 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: It's because I'm the 9 federal rep that Tim skipped over me. This happens every 10 time. I'm just teasing. 11 This has been an amazing opportunity for 12 me. Land use planning in 1983 in the Northwest 13 Territories it was agreed with government and First 14 Nations and Metis and Inuit that land use planning in the 15 north would be community based. 16 Twenty (20) some odd years later we are 17 still advancing community based land use plans. And this 18 land use plan done in the Dehcho is an amazing 19 accomplishment for the people of the Dehcho and I think 20 you should be all very proud of the work and 21 contributions that you've made to -- to getting us where 22 we are. 23 On another note, there have been 24 discussions, just for the information of the delegates, 25 with Canada that there may be funding available --

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1 additional funding. You'll understand that we'll wait 2 until we get the agreement in the mail and signed off 3 before we get too carried away. 4 We've also been having discussions with 5 our friends from the Government of the Northwest 6 Territories as well, in terms of opportunities where we 7 can get together to start advancing discussions, and 8 looking at our common ground, and resolving some of the - 9 - some of the outstanding matters that we still have 10 there. 11 Thank you again for the opportunity. It's 12 been excellent. Mahsi cho. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, last but not 14 least we have to have our executive director say 15 something on behalf of the staff. 16 So, Heidi...? 17 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: I thought I would get 18 off easy. I'd like to thank everybody for coming. We've 19 put, obviously, a lot of effort into another forum for 20 this year and I think it has, you know, beared the fruits 21 of our labours. 22 We've have phenomenal discussions over the 23 last three (3) days and I'd like to thank you all for 24 your -- your honesty and your integrity for bringing your 25 ideas and your thoughts forward.

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1 This plan is -- is the way it is because 2 you have spoken out over the last three (3) years. Our 3 job has been fairly easy, in fact, that we're just trying 4 to capture your words. And I hope we've been able to do 5 that and I hope we can continue to do that as we go 6 through the final revisions on the plan. 7 So on behalf of the staff I'd like to 8 thank you for giving us such wonderful guidance over 9 these last few years. Mahsi cho. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Heidi. 11 Okay, if all possible we will have the host Chief Roy 12 Fabian do the last closing remarks. 13 Chief Roy Fabian, K'atlodeeche...? 14 15 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 16 17 CLOSING COMMENTS BY CHIEF ROY FABIAN: 18 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Thank you for meeting 19 here for three (3) days. In the future what's going to 20 happen to -- on our land, how we're going to work on it 21 we have to talk about it. We, as Dene people, we have 22 been living on this land for a long time. We -- we have 23 held onto our land up to here, this time. 24 Our future people that we have to protect 25 our -- this land for those people in the future. For the

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1 future we -- how -- how they -- they understand -- they 2 understand it now is what we're working on. 3 So they're thinking about it and how we're 4 trying to hold onto that land. We're trying to work for 5 them so -- so we're still going to have to work on this. 6 We are not finished on that land use planning so we're 7 still going to be working on it. 8 So in the future I would like to say to 9 you all, how we protect our land and how we -- we manage 10 the land, it is not for us that we're doing this, it is 11 for our -- our children's children and their children; 12 that's what we're working for. 13 So now we're sitting with the white people 14 and it seems like it's hard for us but even though we 15 don't understand them one day then they will -- they will 16 understand -- understand better what the people are 17 saying to them and how they're going to operate on their 18 land they will understand. 19 If something happens they will look back 20 on it. If their land -- if something happens to the 21 land they will look back at what we have done. So that's 22 what I want to tell you. 23 When we have feeding of the fire, that's 24 what people used to do in the past. That's how they had 25 respect for that land. We -- that's why we have feeding

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1 of the fire because we're thankful to the past Elders 2 that have passed on. 3 We are here to protect that land for our 4 children's children. That is how we are going to protect 5 our land for them, so we're doing this. So one day -- 6 we're not going to be here all our lives so -- so if we 7 don't do this right for our children's children they -- 8 what's going to happen to them? 9 Who -- who's going to feed the fire for us 10 when we're gone? So that young girl that talked to us, I 11 am happy that I'm a Dene, she said. I'm happy that she 12 said that. 13 Now if we -- if we look at those kids 14 today they seem to be just talking English language. Now 15 they don't even understand what -- the Dene people. 16 Pat -- Pat too, I'd like to thank Pat 17 because all the words that he said, we have to teach our 18 children what we have done in the past. We -- we have to 19 teach our children in the schools and that. It sounds 20 right to me because now I have to -- I have to start 21 working on that and start talking to the children in 22 school. 23 So I'm thankful to Pat for talking; 24 Celine, I thank for talking. I'd like to thank all those 25 people that spoke. Even though I don't want to listen to

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1 them or those white people that want to follow, like, I 2 want to listen to, it seems difficult for me then. 3 Now when the Elders are talking to me I 4 don't want to let their stories go. Whenever I do my 5 work and then our cultural and our -- our teachings and 6 that I want to -- I want to teach this to my -- I want to 7 work on it. 8 Harry Deneron, Chief Harry Deneron, Doug 9 Cardinal and them they talk. I know they -- they said 10 that most of the Elders have gone but yes, some -- but we 11 have to protect this land too. So we're going to all 12 work together to -- so we have to think about how we're 13 going all work together to protect this land. 14 So I would like to thank everybody and I 15 would like to have a safe trip home. And all those Elder 16 -- all those Chiefs and those leaders and that, make sure 17 you live real good on your land. And I'm thankful to all 18 those -- those cooks, all those translators and all those 19 janitors and that. 20 I would like to thank all those people 21 that helped at that meeting and those people that are 22 sitting on the Land Use Planning Federal work. 23 The -- the Land Use Planning Committee, 24 there is a big job ahead of them so they have thought 25 very good about it, and some of them it must be difficult

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1 but they've never said it was hard for them. But even 2 though our -- we -- I'd like to thank Heidi Wiebe, I'd 3 like to thank her for helping us on this land use 4 planning and all those people that are sitting on that 5 committee too, and those youth. 6 And all those youth who are here and all 7 those -- and they help to teach -- they got to learn from 8 watching us here. 9 I would like to thank everybody again. 10 And before everybody goes home we have to -- we're going 11 to say a closing prayer for you, do it -- do it now and 12 then I would like to thank everybody again and all those 13 oil company people, those government people. 14 They wonder what we were doing. But even 15 though we're not following their -- their way of doing 16 things we are going to be thinking about them, even 17 though we are not following what they are doing. 18 But even though -- even that Elder that 19 was talking about that treaty we cannot -- we have to all 20 work together because of that treaty that was signed. We 21 said we were going to be friends and that's why that 22 Elder said, so we have to all work together. That's all 23 I want to say now. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mahsi, Roy. Thank you 25 very much for that. Before we start the closing prayer

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1 there are maps on the wall around in the area here and if 2 you are interested in grabbing them you can go ahead. 3 If there's any maps that you may need or - 4 - or -- for your office individually you can probably put 5 an order in with Heidi here. So -- yeah, that wasn't 6 part of the announcement but I made it. Thank you. 7 Closing prayer. 8 9 (CLOSING PRAYER BY JOE TAMBOUR) 10 11 --- Upon adjourning at 5:36 p.m. 12 13 14 15 Certified Correct, 16 17 18 19 _________________ 20 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 21 22 23 24 25