1 2 3 4 5 6 Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee 7 Regional Forum 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Before: Herb Norwegian - Chairperson 15 Adrian Boyd - Board Member 16 Petr Cizek - Board Member 17 Ron Antoine - Board Member 18 Tim Lennie - Board Member 19 20 21 22 Held at: Hay River Reserve 23 Chief Lamalice Complex 24 February 8th, 2006 25

1 APPEARANCES 2 Heidi Wiebe )Board Staff 3 Paul Wilson ) 4 Monika Templin ) 5 Priscilla Canadien ) 6 Sophie Bonnetrouge ) 7 8 Chief Roy Fabian )Katlodeeche First Nation 9 Pat Martel ) 10 11 Chief Lloyd Chicot )Ka'a'gee Tu First Nation 12 Gabe Chicot ) 13 Sara Chicot ) 14 George Simba ) 15 16 Theresa Elleze )Deh Gah Got'ie Dene Council 17 Phillip Elleze ) 18 Murina Sabourin ) 19 20 Chief Dennis Deneron )Sambaa K'e Dene Band 21 Edward Jumbo ) 22 Rebecca Jumbo ) 23 Ruby Jumbo ) 24 25

1 APPEARANCES (con't) 2 Chief Harry Deneron )Acho Dene Koe Band 3 Stanley Bertrand ) 4 Phillip Battle ) 5 6 Marie Lafferty )Fort Simpson Metis Local 52 7 Barb Villeneuve ) 8 Jonas Lafferty ) 9 Lisa Lafferty ) 10 Kelly Pennycook ) 11 12 Chief Stanley Sanguez )Jean Marie River First Nation 13 Margaret Ireland ) 14 Tyrone Sanguez ) 15 Ernest Hardisty ) 16 17 Richard Lafferty )Fort Providence Metis Local 57 18 Gilbert Bouvier ) 19 Georgette Bouvier ) 20 21 Chief Eric Betsaka )Nahanni Butte Dene Band 22 Jonas Marcellais 23 Elsie Marcellais 24 25

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Chief Harry Deneron ) Acho Dene Koe First Nation 3 Phillip Battle 4 5 Chief Keyna Norwegian ) Liidle Kue First Nation 6 Ernest Michael ) 7 Robert Hardisty ) 8 Jonas Antoine ) 9 10 Chief Karen Thomas Felker ) West Point First Nation 11 Sonya Cayen ) 12 Jim Thomas ) 13 William Michele ) 14 15 Chief Gabe Hardisty ) Pehdzeh Ki First Nation 16 Fred William ) 17 Michael Neyelle ) 18 19 David Livingstone ) DIAND 20 Greg Yeoman ) 21 Arthur Boutilier ) 22 Gary Bohnet ) 23 Gary Potts ) 24 Tony Riley ) 25 Michael Walsh )

1 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Glen Stephens ) DIAND cont'd 4 Philip Maracle ) 5 Mark Prystupa ) 6 7 Tom Beaulieu ) GNWT 8 Carolyn Laude ) 9 Jane McMullen ) 10 Jack Bird ) 11 Greg Brady ) 12 Ian Butters ) 13 Steve Iveson ) 14 Tom Lakusta ) 15 16 Terry Forkheim ) Anadarko 17 Andrew Loosley 18 19 Erica Janes ) CPAWS 20 Jennifer Morin ) 21 22 Ross Papirnick ) Imperial Oil 23 24 Mike Peters ) Canadian Association of 25 Petroleum Producers

1 Appearances (cont'd) 2 3 Dan O'Rourke ) Canadian Zinc 4 5 William Carpenter ) World Wildlife Fund 6 Angus Lennie ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 Community Presentations 4 Acho Dene Koe Band 14 5 Dehcho First Nation 32 6 7 Presentation by GNWT 51 8 Question Period 56 9 10 Presentation by DIAND 124 11 Question Period 141 12 13 14 15 Certificate of Transcript 194 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

1 --- Upon commencing at 9:30 a.m. 2 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Take a seat so we can 4 begin. We're running a bit late. It is now 9:30. 5 Normally we try to get these meetings going by 9:00. So 6 if we can, can we take the seats and we'll begin. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Can we have 11 people come to the table please? Somebody close the 12 doors here so we can have a quiet meeting? Somebody 13 close the doors there please? Thanks. Grab your 14 coffees, teas, bring them to the table so we can begin. 15 What we'd like to do this morning is a 16 couple of things. We're going to do our opening prayer. 17 Is Marie Lafferty here? Is Marie Lafferty in the 18 building? Okay. Okay. Do you want to talk to her? 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. What we'd like 23 to do this morning if we can... 24 Okay. If we can we'd like to make a brief 25 announcement here this morning that we have lost one (1)

1 of our Elders here from the Dehcho, an old warrior of 2 ours that's been involved with the work that we're doing, 3 Alberteen Road (phonetic), a Metis from Fort Simpson, 4 from the Great Lafferty family. 5 We lost her and, of course, an old ally 6 of ours in Tulita, Alfred Lennie, again related to Tim 7 and most of the Lennies here in the Tulita area. 8 We wanted to say some good words about 9 them so if we can all rise I'd ask Marie Lafferty to say 10 a few words and we'll follow by a prayer by Sarah Chicot. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 MS. MARIE LAFFERTY: I don't know if this 15 is on. Good morning to everyone here at the conference. 16 This morning we received word that my dear friend and 17 cousin Alberteen Road passed away at 4:00 a.m. They were 18 Medi-vacing her to Edmonton and she passed en route to 19 Edmonton. 20 Alberteen has been my -- my very dear 21 friend for most of my life and she -- she was the 22 president for the Metis nation in Simpson for oh, off and 23 on for eighteen (18) -- eighteen (18) years maybe and she 24 is going to be greatly missed by all of us. 25 Alberteen was a mentor, she was a

1 councillor, she was a -- a friend to -- to many. She was 2 a very kind heart and she did a lot of good work and 3 she's going to be dearly missed by us all. Thank you. 4 Oh, and also today was her birthday. 5 Sarah...? 6 MS. SARAH CHICOT: Okay. I'm going to 7 say -- I was asked to say a prayer so I'm just going to 8 say it in English. So the ones that won't understand my 9 language we'll -- we'll -- there's a lot of people here 10 that -- so I'm going to say it in English. 11 12 (OPENING PRAYER) 13 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mahsi. Thanks. Okay. 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If we can resume 19 our meeting, just another announcement. We have some 20 Federal Government and GNWT officials that are sitting in 21 the back. This afternoon the table will be arranged 22 slightly or the tables will be adjusted so that we can 23 include the Federal Government and the GNWT officials to 24 the circle here. So just an announcement in case you see 25 some rearranging going on this afternoon.

1 Again, yesterday we had a good drum dance. 2 We want to thank the drummers and all the people that 3 took part, all the cooks that have prepared the meals for 4 us and of course the community people that helped out. 5 We want to thank everyone here in the 6 community, especially Chief Roy Fabian and all his good 7 people on behalf of the Land Use Planning Office and the 8 organization. We want to thank the community of Hay 9 River, Katlodeeche. 10 Again to the agenda yesterday, we had run 11 through a good long exercise which began with a fire 12 feeding ceremony and we then got into the introduction of 13 the staff. We made some announcements. We reviewed the 14 agenda. Then we talked a bit about the goals and 15 objectives. We also got a overview of the revised Deh 16 Cho Land Use plan and in the afternoon we then went into 17 community presentations. 18 The communities that made their 19 presentations were Katlodeeche, West Point, Fort 20 Providence Metis, Jean Marie River First Nation, Ka'a gee 21 Tu, Sambaa K'e, Nahanni Butte, Liidli Kueru, Fort Simpson 22 Metis, and Pehdzeh Ki. 23 The Fort Providence or the Deh Gah Gotie 24 weren't available to make a presentation. I talked to 25 the Chief yesterday and she was going to send an elected

1 official to the meeting here to be here for this morning 2 to speak on behalf of the Deh Gah Gotie and so if that 3 person is available maybe we'll make some room so that a 4 presentation can be made on behalf of the Fort Providence 5 people. 6 Again, this morning we wanted to continue. 7 Again the agenda's pretty straight forward. We'd like to 8 move on with the community presentations. There's still 9 roughly about four (4) presentations that need to be 10 made. Acho Dene Koe, which would be -- their 11 presentation would be made by Chief Harry Deneron. Fort 12 Liard Metis, I don't know if they're here but for the 13 record they have an opportunity to make a presentation. 14 And also the Dehcho First Nations. 15 We would also like to encourage the Dehcho 16 Elders to make a presentation on their views of the whole 17 plan and if we can we would make allowance for that. So 18 if the Elders wanted to get together and have a quick 19 little discussion and figure out who's going to speak I 20 believe Sam Gargan the assistant negotiator who's been 21 helping out the Elders was going to have that brief 22 discussion with them. So there'll be an opportunity to 23 hear from the Dehcho Elders on what they think of the Deh 24 Cho Land Use Plan. 25 And then after coffee break after the

1 communities and everyone has made their presentations 2 we'd like to move onto government presentations which 3 would be the GNWT, DIAND, and by that time we hope to 4 have broken for lunch. 5 And after lunch we would then get into 6 the business sector presentations which would include the 7 Canadian Association of Petroleum Producers, Anardarko, 8 Canadian Zinc. We'll have a brief coffee break and then 9 the NGO presentations, Canadian Parks and Wilderness 10 Society, World Wildlife Fund and then public comments and 11 that should pretty well bring us to about 5:00. 12 So this is the flow of the agenda for 13 today. If there are no comments, no announcements we'd 14 like to proceed. So if we can could we move to Acho Dene 15 Koe, Chief Harry Deneron? 16 17 (BRIEF PAUSE) 18 19 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: Mr. Chairman, I 20 wouldn't mind going up to the front so I can point 21 finger. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sure. Yeah, go ahead. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25

1 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: Good morning. My 2 name is Harry Deneron. I've been Chief in Fort Liard 3 since 1975 off and on. Most of the time I've been very 4 involved with ongoing business at the Dehcho government 5 and -- and earlier days than the nation and Indian 6 brotherhood. 7 I just want to briefly go over where we 8 started and where we are today in my point of view. 1975 9 as one (1) nation throughout Mackenzie Valley we laid 10 claim to seven hundred and fifty thousand (750,000) 11 square miles right to the -- to the delta. Last when I 12 was personally involved in 1975. 13 As you know that's a large area and 14 there's -- today you look at it there's five (5) regions 15 and lots of land. As you know that Aboriginal people 16 don't do things alike and don't think alike. 17 As a result we had our differences and we 18 progressed up into five (5) different regions and today 19 we are the only one in the Dehcho that we don't have a 20 settlement yet. I just want to remind you that when I 21 talk about this land I talk -- I will talk about it 22 because I walked those lands in the past. 23 In 1952 one (1) of my brothers got married 24 in Trout Lake, 1952. Me and my older brother we 25 accompanied a group of people that came in for supplies,

1 I think it was about the end of June. We travelled back 2 to Trout Lake by foot. There's two (2) trails. One (1) 3 high on the high ground and the winter road -- winter 4 trail is different again but the -- the trail that we use 5 most of the time there's only one (1) trail to Celabeta 6 Lake. There's only one (1) trail. 7 From there the winter road -- winter trail 8 separate from the summer one but nevertheless I walked 9 that and I lived in Trout Lake and the first time I went 10 to Trout Lake on the south end of the lake there was two 11 (2) -- three (3) cabins and there was -- that's all there 12 were, there was three (3) cabins. 13 And further down where the settlement is 14 now there was nothing there. We used to pick berries 15 there. There was absolutely nothing there. Across the 16 river on the north side of that river there was one (1) 17 cabin with a cat on it. 18 And then there was no other cabin that I 19 seen. There was cabins on the north end, now I -- I see 20 now it used to be on Lake Loman (phonetic) I used to live 21 on the far end. Those -- those people they never travel 22 to Fort Liard, they always went to Simpson. 23 And so my brother was living in Trout 24 Lake and in those days there was hardly any people there. 25 I just described to you how many families were there

1 then. That was 1952. 2 In 1959 and 1960 I had a chance to travel 3 the same way on the dog team -- dog team patrol with the 4 RCMP. Again, we dug out the diary and the words that was 5 in there so that the previous RCMP had travelled the same 6 route and they gave you some kind of instruction how -- 7 where to camp and how far you should go and where to find 8 those people and where to find those tracks. 9 The dogs were a very important part of the 10 transportation then and they also tell you about where 11 you possibly could get some dog food if you come in the 12 mine. They describe where the people were at those time 13 of the year. 14 In 1962 I travelled with the RCMP on one 15 (1) -- one (1) -- one (1) of those travel. We got to 16 Trout Lake, there was nobody there. There was nobody 17 there. They were all gone in the bush to the west of the 18 lake. In some places we couldn't -- we couldn't find 19 tracks to even follow them. 20 So we went down to the north end of the 21 lake. Again we come up through empty tracks and there 22 was nobody there. We came back. So I have a very 23 knowledge of where those -- those trails were and how 24 small a number we were then. And there was no trouble 25 then.

1 And I know like in the Celabeta Lake where 2 my sister still has a cabin today I know that those 3 people, Edward Jumbo to my left here, he used to camp 4 with us there on his way to -- to town and on his way 5 back to the lake. I don't see them trapping there or 6 hunting there. They were migrating through there to get 7 supplies from the -- from the town. And there's nothing 8 wrong with that. 9 And the thing -- the reason I say that is 10 that we have our differences here a bit here, maybe I'll 11 go into it a little bit later but to the north too. It 12 was the same way. I used to travel with the RCMP up to 13 Regina Falls (phonetic) with my point horse Hicker 14 (phonetic) and we'd done that lots of times. And we also 15 travelled by dog team. 16 Again we almost had a guide description 17 of how you can travel on that river by previous RCMP's 18 that were stationed there. And it dated back to way back 19 in 1949/'48 where the RCMP used to travel down the river, 20 make it to Nahanni, travel to Fort Simpson and back to 21 Trout Lake and make that loop, that circle. 22 And they often described where the -- 23 where you can find those people. It was sometime they 24 tell us you -- after three (3) -- three (3) islands on 25 this river you turn and you look for the old trail they

1 say that used to be used to carry mail between 2 communities no further north. There was a trail that was 3 used for -- to carry mail through there. 4 So we had a hard time to find those trails 5 to follow them to get to Nahanni, those kinds of things 6 that I experienced and today you know like we seem to say 7 that your land is my land and you know unless we work 8 out these kind of problems I think we can make a go of 9 things but whenever you have two (2) chiefs in one same 10 area there'll be trouble. Never alone, we have one (1) 11 chief, we have problems. 12 So those are like real things in life to 13 us and there's nothing wrong with sharing some of those 14 land but the thing is that to say over my dead body 15 you're not going to do this, there's a problem. 16 So the other thing too is that I don't 17 know the other communities that can do what they're doing 18 here. They -- I look at the land use and it kind of 19 bothered me when there's a land use that I discovered 20 when I went to Ottawa in -- in November. I got that map. 21 First time I seen that map, when I brought it back it was 22 the first time a lot of people seen it. That's trouble. 23 If we're going to move ahead we have to 24 share those kinds of steps -- the kind of things that is 25 important to us in life.

1 Some of those companies I respect that 2 they do a great deal of jobs there and I honour what they 3 did and what it means to them. I hold that to my heart 4 today but when a small community, maybe a hundred (100) 5 people that are pretty happy with what they have to -- to 6 live with. I respect that but when my community, we have 7 over five hundred (500) band members, we can't always 8 live on government programs and handout. 9 They expect that we create about a hundred 10 and twenty (120) -- a hundred and fifty (150) jobs each 11 year. That's our mandate. As you guys know that I was 12 elected on those basis just in the past month, this June. 13 So that should be respected too. I'm -- 14 I'm too old to be -- they say I'm going to be a chief 15 forever, but when there's trouble arises in the community 16 they call on their old horse; that's me. I'm not here to 17 look good and stuff like that but I'm here because it's 18 important to be part of you, move forward in the Dehcho 19 process and a lot of the work you did. 20 I respect that but today I want to show 21 you how we say we can create certain jobs and I think 22 that there's a place in your -- all your things that you 23 did before. We just want to go in it with you, explain 24 to you what we want to do. 25 And this isn't final. The thing is that

1 once we carve up an area where we think we can open up 2 for certain I guess opportunity we want to show it to 3 you. I just turn it over the Shane here. Maybe he can 4 help me. 5 The only other thing too is that, you know 6 like Shane used to work with us long before and when the 7 last Council came in he was booted out and now we -- it 8 was necessary for him to come back because a lot of the 9 things that we do lies in the south. The government 10 isn't going to give us more program money, they're -- 11 they're broke. So we have to look at the industry to 12 create certain opportunity and that's mostly the home 13 base is usually Calgary. 14 So we don't have money to send people over 15 there and back just to create the opportunity. The last 16 -- the last Council -- I have to let you know the last 17 Council in one (1) year they spent one hundred and twenty 18 four thousand dollars ($124,000) in travel. We don't 19 have that kind of money. 20 So we hired Shane again and he lives in 21 Calgary and he -- he works for us from there just by the 22 hour. We don't have to go fly back and forth to Calgary 23 all the time like the previous Council because that's 24 what happened. 25 Maybe Shane you can help me out here and

1 look at some of those things that we want to -- like 2 again I said this isn't a final thing we're proposing 3 this year if it can be -- it can be dealt with with -- 4 through this process. Thank you. 5 MR. SHANE PARRISH: Okay. Thanks very 6 much. We've prepared this presentation. Both basically 7 it represents what -- the letter that was sent to the 8 Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee on the 30th of 9 January. So it basically outlines the same information 10 that's there in the letter. 11 If you've had an opportunity to read the 12 letter it's on the web and all that stuff so -- but this 13 is a PowerPoint presentation that kind of gives some 14 description. In some ways it's kind of awkward but we'll 15 see what we can do here. 16 The first slide we have is -- is the area 17 that -- traditional territory for ADK, Acho Dene Koe. I 18 just want to point out that Frank Kotchea's back there 19 and Frank's been working on this for I don't know how 20 many years with the Band and through Nahodhe and it's not 21 something that was just dreamed up or something in the 22 last few months. This has been ongoing for at least five 23 (5) years this work on the traditional land use area. 24 This thing we wanted to point out here, as 25 you'll see there's three (3) jurisdictions here, the

1 Northwest Territories, Yukon, and BC and that we're just 2 getting ready to start this traditional value study 3 similar -- like traditional land base study which should 4 be starting here any week or so. 5 Well, I guess we -- we -- as Harry 6 mentioned they saw this map in Ottawa and we first become 7 aware of that and they had a bunch of lines on it and a 8 bunch of zones and this and that and we started looking 9 at that. 10 And although it says on the -- on the 11 plan that it allows for certain activities, when you look 12 at the conditions that are put on those activities it's - 13 - it became pretty obvious pretty quick that there wasn't 14 going to be anything happening on these management zones 15 and the ones we were focussing on were twenty-one (21) 16 and twenty-six (26). 17 We felt that if we were going to see 18 anything we'd have to make some changes to those 19 management zones. You can see the grey area that just 20 appeared here, so --just when you need it it doesn't 21 work, you can the grey area that appears. That's the 22 area that we're proposing to create a special management 23 zone on. 24 And the changes that we make are 25 consistent with the Dehcho Land Use Plan philosophy and

1 framework. Now what we're -- we're saying here is the 2 block -- that the proposed block, it's the same block 3 that was approved by Dehcho First Nations in the mid-90s 4 for oil and gas rights-issuance process. So that's the 5 area that we're talking about here, same area as before. 6 Terms and conditions, I'm not going to get 7 into all the terms and conditions -- I'm not going to get 8 into all the terms and conditions, because well first of 9 all, I'm no expert on that. But we did hire the same 10 consultant that was used by -- used in the planning 11 process, this is Terry Antoniuk with Salmo Consulting. 12 Terry -- when we met with Terry, we met 13 with him on a number of occasions, he felt that there was 14 room in the plan to have areas which were perhaps 15 conservation areas and also areas where you could have 16 more development activity. 17 And his analogy was that some areas you 18 have a thirty- (30) kilometre-an-hour zone, some area you 19 have fifty (50), and some area you have a hundred (100). 20 In conservation zones you have a thirty (30) hour, and 21 then other development zones, maybe you want to have a 22 higher speed limit. 23 Right now, the whole Dehcho, where there 24 is a thirty -(30) kilometre-an-hour zone, so we're 25 proposing something a little -- a little more -- a faster

1 speed limit which will allow for actual activity. 2 But it is consistent with, again, it is 3 consistent with what you guys are -- the plan and -- and 4 the philosophy that exists right now. 5 The other thing we wanted to introduce was 6 a special infrastructure corridor. Again, similar to the 7 infrastructure corridor that you find with the Mackenzie 8 Valley Pipeline, you know, there is existing gas that's 9 been discovered, and we're talking about oil and gas. 10 If you can't have gas that's discovered, 11 put on production, why are we talking about having rights 12 issuances, or more, you know, the -- if you can't -- if 13 you can't put production on that's already discovered, 14 how can you convince oil companies to come and drill and 15 have activities if they can't see that activities can be 16 successful. 17 So this is the proposed pipeline that 18 Anadarko has -- has prepared. We've -- so we put that on 19 the map. It's a significant project and if it was 20 planned right, it could be done a year or two (2) before 21 the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline is done, which would be 22 very helpful to be -- get ready and -- and train to go 23 and -- and do that, and tackle that Mackenzie Valley 24 Pipeline. 25 If you -- if we did this project before

1 the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline, you could probably 2 multiply the benefits that you would have from Mackenzie 3 Valley Pipeline by two (2) or three (3), four (4) times. 4 We've also identified an area, we would 5 like to see in a meeting call for nominations. Again, 6 we're not -- in the last couple of changes, the last 7 round that they had there, you know, that whole area, let 8 me see if I can figure this out, this whole area was 9 opened up to rights issuance. 10 So this time around we're just saying, 11 okay, let's just identify smaller areas where we can do a 12 rights issuance, and then just open it, not the whole 13 area, maybe just open a few parcels in that area. 14 Again, we would want to do it consistent 15 with the Canadian Petroleum Resource Act, existing 16 Legislation, on a work-bid commitment. Of course, 17 there's issues with respect to Trout Lake and Nahanni, 18 that need to be resolved, and that's one of the reasons, 19 I guess we're here, we are going to meet this evening. 20 There had been previous discussions around 21 economic boundaries to try to sort it out, how, that's 22 like a, I think a, it's like the, what Harry was saying, 23 it's very difficult for, when there's two Chiefs, it's 24 very difficult to understand by, for the oil companies or 25 whoever is coming in there, and it just becomes

1 unworkable. 2 So we've got to sort this -- this out 3 before you could have a call in that area. 4 The other thing that is mentioned is -- 5 what was the other thing? 6 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: As -- as you know 7 this pipeline that you see there we're saying that that 8 pipeline, we need to -- to work on it. If that project's 9 worth $250 million that can provide a lot of jobs and 10 opportunity for us. Right now about seventy (70)/eighty 11 (80) of our guys are working up in BC. No jobs in Liard. 12 They're working way south of Fort Nelson somewhere 13 because that's -- that's the only thing that's available 14 to them. 15 When we have an opportunity at our own 16 backyard, you know this here, a discovery is made from 17 the last issuance and for that when we were doing the 18 nomination we had a letter of support from Tribal Council 19 to make that go ahead. Finally, later on those support, 20 that call, there was three (3) discoveries. There's 21 three (3) SDL. There's three (3) discovery that were 22 ready to be piped out to the -- to the market. 23 The other two (2) happened to the south, 24 but the one to the north everybody got involved in the 25 community where we had support and then they finally said

1 I guess that's why we have our differences and once you 2 support it, it's pretty hard to go back and say, Well, I 3 put certain conditions. Now you kill that project. 4 That's what's -- exactly what happened here. 5 We can be challenged in court for that 6 maybe but we -- nevertheless we want to make that happen. 7 If they give us an opportunity, it's out there now. 8 Like I -- the -- right around -- I heard around the table 9 yesterday is that nobody lives off the land anymore. 10 It's very true. Our home is very safe. And the thing is 11 that much people that want to go back on the land but 12 they only want to do it on the weekends and when they 13 want to do it. 14 And for that you need special tools. For 15 -- for people to want to go back on the land today you 16 need five thousand dollars ($5,000) just to get back and 17 none of Aboriginal people have that kind of money. 18 Therefore we have to look at ways and means to -- to look 19 at those opportunities and it's -- it's important that 20 you make those deals. And later on and you apply more 21 conditions you just kill that project. 22 Hopefully we will meet tonight and we will 23 come out with some kind of resolution to make that thing 24 happen. But if that doesn't happen we're in trouble. 25 You know when I discovered that map in

1 Ottawa in November it was very new to me. Like I said 2 I've been involved with the -- the nation, land claim and 3 process since '75 and I always took part and if I can't - 4 - if I didn't see it, how many other people never seen it 5 in the community? And I'm outgoing. I speak English, I 6 read paper, I never seen nothing. That's why I guess we 7 had the election. 8 And the thing is how many of you read 9 words for words in this catalogue here? I done that. 10 I've done that and a lot of the stuff that we're doing 11 here it's come -- it came out of this -- this book here. 12 How many of you read that? I did. That's why we're 13 having a problem with it. But then again we won't -- 14 we're having problems on our own traditional land. 15 Somebody else imposed on us that -- they colour coded us. 16 Colour coding the map and our territory 17 doesn't tell the other world how -- why we're so stingy 18 about this land. Like we're doing here, we're going -- 19 stuff that we're doing here is that we want to do 20 traditional knowledge and values and once we come up it 21 will be something like this. 22 So I think we have a little different 23 approach in some communities but I'm sure we are all 24 saying the same thing. I don't think -- I listened to 25 everybody around the table yesterday. I think we're more

1 confused about this one here than before. 2 Like I said at the beginning, before we 3 were one nation and we approached the government on that 4 one nation; one voice. And what we had to show 5 government then is that we look after our own land and we 6 colour code it today. For hundreds of years we look 7 after it. 8 And as a nation today, that we exist in 9 Fort Liard, we will continue to take care of that land 10 the way we always did. That's how strong we believe that 11 we -- I think that we did a very good job taking care of 12 our land in the past and we will continue to do it. 13 Sometime you try to do something you just 14 choke on your own future. And when we -- together we -- 15 we choke ourself, we've given the Government of Canada 16 opportunity to choke us even further. 17 So we have to be on the look out and look 18 for our future on a daily basis. Thanks. 19 MR. SHANE PARRISH: Well, there's a 20 couple more slides but I'll just be quick. Again, we 21 said in the letter some -- some of the conforming 22 requirements action and recommendations were -- we see as 23 unworkable and they're also inconsistent with existing 24 legislation. So that's a problem that needs to be sorted 25 out.

1 The conservation zones, the Acho Dene Koe, 2 as it says here, there are some concerns around the 3 overlap areas where there is the park and proposed 4 protected area strategy. These need to be sorted out. 5 And I think I just said that. Anyway, I 6 think that's about -- that pretty much wraps it up. But 7 I guess a bit more work's required to finish this. 8 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: Thanks, Shane. 9 Once again, you know, what we're proposing is nothing 10 different. I think we want your support so that we will 11 continue to work on our process and maybe share some of 12 those opportunity. 13 But we much further like to look -- if you 14 look at our traditional land base, if we believe that we 15 can meet on that borderline and let's create something 16 that's workable. 17 Everything is workable today, as I see it. 18 Just need more discussion on more meaningful terms. 19 We're prepared to put a buffer zone in there where we 20 both can manage from different communities. 21 That is, if you give up five (5) 22 kilometres on your side and we do the same thing on our 23 side. I give ten (10) kilometres of buffer zone where 24 you can design from, you know, like you need other 25 consents from other community to make that work.

1 But to have two (2) chief calling the shot 2 on the other side, it will never work. And, you know, 3 sometime, like I said, what happened to our strategy. 4 Like, one time -- like I said, we went to make a land 5 claim as one nation to seven hundred and fifty thousand 6 (750,000) square miles. 7 Now, in a very small piece of land here we 8 still -- are you saying -- we're saying that we can't 9 manage it. We have to hire resource people from the 10 south for big money and sometime they make it more 11 confusing that it seems like they're going to have an 12 eternal job. 13 You need to hire more resource people to 14 the south -- from the south. You look at what -- what 15 we're going to do or what we're going to manage, what 16 we're going to manage. How about our kids. We're saying 17 that we have -- I go to school and I see all those kids 18 are in school. 19 And now there's more money in the 20 communities and different places. And you see that 21 there's more people in the senior class going to the 22 south to -- to receive further education; isn't that what 23 we want. Isn't that what we want to see? 24 And it's happening, and as leaders we have 25 to provide some opportunity for those guys when they come

1 back. Even myself, if I want to go in the bush I need 2 different tools. They don't have no tools at all. 3 They're -- they're trained to work in the office and 4 those kind of things and what are we providing for them 5 for the future. 6 So -- so, you know, like, what I'm saying 7 here is that everything's workable. I think that we need 8 your support if we -- if we're going to move forward. So 9 I just want you -- I want to ask you that. Thanks. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks there 11 Chief Harry Deneron. Again, we can continue to move on 12 with our agenda. Our next presenter would be -- we had 13 the Fort Liard Metis; they're not here. 14 So if we can move on. We'd like to move 15 on to the Dehcho First Nation. I think Ria -- Ria from 16 the negotiating team, the Dehcho First Nation will be 17 making a presentation. 18 MS. RIA LETCHER: Mahsi cho. This 19 morning -- this morning I met with the Dehcho, all those 20 people that we met with at the Deh Cho Land Use Planning 21 and I would like to thank all those people that work on 22 this project. 23 It is good for the future that we're 24 working on this land use plan. This paper here is a very 25 important document on how we're going to use our land and

1 how we're -- they are doing a very good job on it. 2 What we're meeting about here is like we 3 were talking about here on this paper, is the Deh Cho 4 Land Use Planning Committee, all those people that are 5 working on it. They are looking at it very good and how 6 we're going to put information in there. 7 When it comes to the end of the signing of 8 the paper there we want to be following what the paper 9 says. It is not -- it's just a draft paper right now and 10 we're going to be looking at it again for the next year. 11 And once it's all completed we will be looking at it 12 again. 13 And then every five (5) years we'll be 14 looking at it again. This is -- is not the final work on 15 this. Every time you work on it there will be changes to 16 it. 17 Say thank you to the Deh Cho Land Use 18 Planning Committee and the staff on behalf of the Dehcho 19 First Nations negotiating team. It's been four (4) years 20 of hard work and the draft land use plan is a great 21 achievement in the Dehcho process, as the Dehcho process 22 is about land management. 23 We'd like to acknowledge the hard work of 24 the committee and we trust that they will do their best 25 to incorporate all the concerns that they've heard here

1 during the forum and we look forward to the next stage of 2 the plan and the final review. 3 There are comforts built into the plan -- 4 into the framework of the plan. Those are the five (5) 5 year review -- the five (5) year review of the plan. The 6 review -- or the revisions of the plan and a final 7 agreement. 8 This brings comfort to the plan that it's 9 an evolving document that is going to represent the needs 10 of the day. So with that I would just like to say thank 11 you. Mahsi cho to the Land Use Planning Committee and 12 staff. Mahsi. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Ria. 14 Again, I guess we're looking for a couple of presenters. 15 We're waiting for the Elders to do their presentation but 16 I'm wondering if maybe we should just call a quick break, 17 have a quick ten (10) minute break and we'll get the 18 Elders organized and we'll hear from the Elders at that 19 point. Okay, ten (10) minute break. 20 21 --- Upon recessing at 10:20 a.m. 22 --- Upon resuming at 10:43 a.m. 23 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: This portion we'd like 25 to ask the Elder representatives to come to microphone

1 number 17, to the front, and I assume it's Elder 2 Coordinator Sam Gargan and Jonas Antoine, I think. 3 Sam...? 4 MR. SAM GARGAN: I must say, Herbie, good 5 morning. 6 7 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 8 9 Right now it's been about two (2) years 10 since -- since I've been working with the Elders and -- 11 and many times it's -- they don't change their story very 12 often. And the reason they do that is because -- because 13 -- because in 2004, I believe, 2004, 2003 they had an 14 interim measure agreement and they had that in place. 15 And if you look at it a lot of us have -- have our 16 statement that we follow, which is in there. 17 And so that's a reason why when you talk 18 about the land you talk about the land, how we're going 19 to be working on it and how we're going to utilize it. 20 And if you look at it that way we are land-keepers. And 21 it sounds very good when you are a land-keeper and it is 22 good to see that. 23 And you also have the stewardship within 24 the land. But still we still have -- we still say that 25 that's an English version and so what we want to do we

1 want to make it into our own Dene language. 2 When you are a Dene people that living on 3 the land there's two (2) separate things they say about 4 you. But if you talk it in our language, in the Dene 5 language, it's one with land. And so everything that we 6 related to with the land, that's what it is in our 7 language. It's not -- not separate. 8 But in -- but in English, if you pick 9 something, it's always something you put apart and that's 10 the way people see it and that's what they don't like 11 because they want it -- they want to have it in Slavey. 12 Before that, before Canada, maybe 19 -- 13 1867, somewhere around there, that's where Canada -- 14 Canada was -- they start working on how to make Canada at 15 that time become a continent. 16 And at that time that's where they had a 17 number of treaties that were going out into Canada, 18 separate places making treaties with the Dene people and 19 all other tribes. 20 So the Elders, what they say is when they 21 look at these things they look back at it. They see 22 things that they're the ones that are the ones that hold 23 onto the land and land-keepers. 24 And it's like the land that's holding us; 25 not us owning the land but the land owning us. And they

1 don't see that as ours, they said it's the land that owns 2 us. And if you look at in the English version it's a 3 whole different -- different -- different version of you 4 being related with the land. 5 But for me, like it's my dad, where he 6 lived. I'm from Red Knife and that's -- that's -- that's 7 the land that I hold. And we don't say it's ours, we 8 just -- we just hold -- the land holds us, that's the way 9 they see things. 10 And all other things that we talk about is 11 that when you do -- when you do with regards the land use 12 planning, you look at that. Something that the elders 13 they see it, way before Canada, they see these things, 14 they look at the rich land and they look at the different 15 kind of things, the way they see the land. 16 And after that they see that half of it, 17 probably half of Canada is within the Northwest 18 Territories. That's how it used to be. And then after 19 that province came into place and all this other stuff. 20 So if you look at a map of Canada, I guess 21 that's how they see it, but still -- but still, if we are 22 going to protect our land and look after our land and how 23 we're going to relate with it, working on it, is that it 24 looks pretty good, even with regards to job, the 25 employment, it looks good.

1 But for us, we're Dene people, when we 2 look at being a Dene people wherever you're from. 3 There's about a hundred (100) different, maybe two 4 hundred (200) different nations, different tribes that -- 5 that live on the land, you know, and in -- in English 6 they probably call it tribal area. 7 And besides that, the land use planning, 8 if you look at the -- the version of it on the land use 9 planning, that to the elders they -- they really think 10 about that. And they're very careful how they're going 11 to go ahead. They watch what's happening. For us it's - 12 - it's for us, they said, we cannot get away from the 13 land. 14 But if you look at this, you translate it 15 in -- in the English version it's not that same way that 16 they -- they use the oral version of it. The translation 17 is different if -- when you put it in English. 18 And so those are the things that we see 19 and how we're going to live among each other, what is on 20 our land, how we're going to do it. We have to -- we 21 have to live together side by side and some places is not 22 very well because people are starting to split up, each - 23 - each nation between lands. And so if that happens, 24 then it's going to be not very -- not very favourable for 25 us.

1 Those are the things that they're very -- 2 they're very careful of watching, is the line between 3 each community. 4 And in English it says one with land, 5 including the map, and that's what they say. But for us, 6 if they look at it, they see a different way and they -- 7 and it's not the way they -- they translate it. They 8 just say that land with them. 9 And with regard to the government, if it's 10 them, they -- they see it differently. And that's a 11 reason why the elders are really concerned about some of 12 the things that if, okay, if this happens and then this 13 has been settled and wherever they hold on to these 14 things and the territory council, them too, they get 15 involved, then they're going to have to think the same 16 way that we're thinking. We're going to hold that land 17 together, and they have to do that, they've got to stand 18 with us. So they -- they're in agreement with that. 19 And mostly in English, the elders they -- 20 they review things and when they review things they use 21 how the olden ways was, and they look at that, it -- and 22 it's like a colonisation. But when they see the paper, 23 it's something like that, that they -- they see in that 24 as being used against us. 25 So the elders, them, they thinking that

1 land use planning, yes, everybody reviewed it in 2 community and -- and it happened through their -- their 3 version. And all what's been land -- on land use, it's 4 all put there. But how it's been used and how it's been 5 -- how trails were used, it's not really been told. 6 We need to tell people where we're from, 7 where we use these land, and we have to put Slavey names 8 on every one of those places, there's hardly any Slavey 9 names in those areas that we -- we gave -- we talked 10 about. And so -- and so what the elders are thinking, 11 that we're going to have to follow what they're saying. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 And so when you look at the paper, the 16 map, the land, we, as being Dene people, it looks like 17 we're the ones that own the land. No, it's not like 18 that. It's the land owning us. 19 And so if we look at it, it should be 20 here. But it's not the way that the version of the -- 21 the Elders' version in there. What they're saying is 22 that if, in English, we're made to fit into this 23 document, not the other way around. 24 So that -- that's another version that 25 they're not -- they're concerned about. When they look

1 at the interim measure that's been put there, you can't 2 do it that way. But then they look at it and they 3 reviewed it. Now, if the government, the Territorial 4 Council, if they -- they feel that this -- this is a good 5 agreement then they're going to go ahead. It sounds very 6 good but it could be management. 7 You look -- look at the treaty rights, the 8 aboriginal rights, that's -- that's separate thing and 9 this interim -- interim measure agreement is a separate 10 thing also. 11 So I just want to say that much. I know I 12 worked with the Elders for a long time and them too what 13 they tell me, I'm always thinking about the -- they 14 always talk about the land that's there. We're not going 15 to go away from the land. It's always going to be there 16 for us. 17 And we're going to follow in the -- we're 18 going to follow what the negotiation is saying. But 19 people who go by treaty rights, we talk about what is our 20 treaty rights is that we're one with the land and the 21 land one with us; that's the way we see it. 22 Whatever is living on the land, whatever 23 it is, we have to protect those. They're not going to 24 just stand around here and wait for us. We have to do 25 this. We have to put ours forward; that's what the

1 Elders are saying, so that they can protect us for the 2 future -- for the future of our children's children. 3 We've got to think about these things. 4 So these things and so five (5) years that 5 they're in the land use planning, so after that what's 6 going to happen, we don't know. But we know for the 7 future of our children we have to put something concrete 8 in place what the Elders are saying. They have to put 9 something concrete in place, even without the paper. 10 We know how to talk with Canada. We know 11 what we are saying to Canada and think that's more 12 important for us. So it's going to be like we are our 13 own government; that's the way we look at the land. So 14 we will protect it. 15 So this is just a -- a paper that's a 16 guideline, like, like which land is ours and which is not 17 -- which is ours and they're saying that we never let go 18 of nothing and doing that we didn't give it up or they 19 didn't think that that land is not theirs. 20 There's a lot of other things that -- 21 there's a lot of Elders that are sitting here and that's 22 how they -- they look at this and those how they talk. 23 They always speak with one language, one mind. And 24 they're not going to change -- they can't change it what 25 they're saying, what they tell me.

1 So that's what the Elders think. So, but 2 other things other than that, what they think about the 3 land, they probably want to say something. We're going 4 to give them that opportunity. Thank you. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Sam. 6 Jonas Antoine...? 7 MR. JONAS ANTOINE. Bon Jour. Bon Journo. 8 Buenos Dias. In Dene we don't say good morning, we just 9 get up look at one another and grunt. 10 11 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 12 13 I'm going to say it in my own language. 14 Thank you for giving me this opportunity to speak on 15 something that we started to talk about back in 1921. 16 That's where I'll be bringing my presentation from. At 17 that time when the people came from the south and they 18 came among us here and at that time they start 19 negotiating with us or start coming into our community, 20 into our land. 21 And, at that time they started negotiating 22 with us or start coming into our community, into our 23 land, and at that time, all the community in the Dene 24 that were the Leaders, they got together, they got 25 together and then they start talking with the Chiefs.

1 They start talking about the land. 2 And so they started talking with each 3 other and at that time they're -- what they have said is 4 that can -- can we be with you on your land. That's what 5 they said. If we're there with you on their land, and 6 with that, we can, in exchange, help you. 7 If you want to speak in English, we can 8 teach you that too. And also with regards to the 9 employment, we can also help you. And also people that 10 are living in various communities, if they housing -- 11 houses like that, we'll help you too, that's what they 12 told us. 13 And that's when it started -- we started 14 talking with Canada. When we as a Dene People, we share, 15 we help with each other, and at that time there the 16 Leaders, they said they thought, well, maybe it's all 17 right, maybe they could just stay among us, live among 18 us. And then we thought we could share things with them. 19 So, but, as we always shared, you know, us 20 Dene People, even though we have a big land, we are 21 protect it, we'll keep it, and once in a while we really 22 think about it, we say -- we say it's ours but it's not 23 really ours, it's just there for us to use, and that's 24 how the Dene think. 25 That's the reason why, you look back in

1 1990, when we were having meetings at Dettah in 2 Yellowknife, at that time they had a meeting, everybody 3 fell apart, everything fell apart. And if you look down 4 north, you look in the -- the Gwich'in area, they have a 5 land claim, Sahtu, they have a land claim, and now the 6 Dogrib have a land claim settled. 7 And Harry is right, that much big land, 8 that used to be ours one time, what happened? We all 9 held it as one. We as a Dehcho People, we have a big 10 mass-ful land that we hold. It's all ours, but we say, 11 but, you know, if you look at it, there are different 12 people that have their lands, and some people grabbed -- 13 grabbed onto it, and say -- and say that they took some 14 things from our land, underneath our land on top. 15 So if you look like, if you think the Dene 16 way, we share everything, we help each other with 17 everything. And once in a while we share and help with 18 each other and pull with each other even though 19 somebody's different. We -- we allow them to come with 20 us and stay with us. 21 That's what we think, that's the reason 22 why the last three (3) years when we had a meeting here 23 in Hay River, when we're coming down this way, and my dad 24 was still alive at that time, we went and pass him, we're 25 going to talk about the land, what do you think, we said?

1 He thought about it for a while, and he said, our land is 2 big, who could own 3 -- who could use the whole thing? 4 And at that time that's when we start 5 thinking, and we start thinking that way, and we used to 6 look at it that way, with through his -- his sharing with 7 us. And so when we look at this land, these papers that 8 have been put there, it's -- we look -- we look at the 9 future, we're thinking about it that way. 10 Things are going to change; we know that, 11 we're aware of it. But on one hand, if we're going to be 12 among each other, they're going to have to think the way 13 we think too. But right now, they sit -- they sit around 14 and what if something fell apart? They're going to take 15 that opportunity and jump on it right away. 16 That's the reason why you see these maps, 17 you see, the big map in the back there, you see some 18 white spots there. Those are -- it's all right. We 19 still -- we still have -- we're still having a meeting 20 with, and discussing that and it's already on -- on the 21 map; see what we mean? 22 It goes ahead of us. I say, we're the 23 boss of our own land, our own land in the map and 24 everything, it'd be good if it's underneath each 25 community. But if somebody else is going to do it for

1 us, it's not be very good, it's going to get away from 2 us. 3 So if we think different from each other, 4 in the end what's going to happen is that something's 5 going to happen with our -- our land and we're going to 6 follow people and we're going to start -- we're going to 7 start -- start thinking about money and fighting among 8 each other, that's what's going to happen. And that's 9 not what we want for the future. 10 So right now, the way it's going, only a 11 little bit money they throw in the middle here and say, 12 here fix this, but in the end what even became -- becomes 13 -- it becomes their -- their land and they're paid for us 14 only with pennies. They're going to take the whole land. 15 If you think the way, if you think like 16 the whiteman, everything's expensive. If you think about 17 the money, it's everything that's paying for it. It's 18 very expensive. 19 And I've seen these things, and I watch 20 this paper, and I see this, even planes, anything, 21 something things that -- that have things, they have a 22 camera, like, on a plane, and they -- they take pictures. 23 We know these guys, we know they're exploring. 24 Even from on top of the -- and even on top 25 with the plane, and we know what is on the land, that --

1 the grass, the -- the -- all things that is growing on 2 earth you look it, everything, even some things that you 3 don't see in the water, they take all this and they -- 4 they expand it until you can't see it very big, and 5 that's how they think. 6 If we start thinking that way, one square 7 kilometre, we look at it as about two hundred million 8 (200,000,000) bucks if you -- if you look at it that way. 9 And if we start thinking that way, that's -- that's how 10 much our land is. 11 So, though we were going to look at the 12 future, we don't spend everything in one shot. We look 13 at things not for now -- only for now, but we think about 14 the next seven (7) generations, that's what we think 15 about. Then we have everything in place for them. 16 That way in the end, the Dene People, 17 those who are going to be Dene, it's for them. We make 18 things set up for them. So that's how we think. That's 19 how I think. 20 We look at this Land Use Plan around my 21 area in the house around my cabin area, if you think Dene 22 People, we would put this paper ahead. It's just only a 23 certain part of the area that one -- one person keeps 24 that, and that's his land, it has his trails there. He 25 has his place where he can -- we can come back to.

1 And somebody different want to go over 2 there, they have to ask me. And if they give me -- if 3 they ask me, I don't say no to them, I lend it to them. 4 But how it is, I have to tell them, I'm 5 going to have to give them their rules of how they are 6 going to look after my cabin and all that, if they're 7 going to use it. At home, don't cut brush, don't throw 8 away garbage, if you don't burn it, just take it back 9 with you, which are the things that I put there. 10 And so when we look at our -- our Land Use 11 Plan, that's how we've got to protect our land, that's 12 how we can allow people to come in, but they've got to 13 follow our rules and regulations, and we have got to tell 14 them how they could use it. 15 We have to put that in place, and that's 16 what this is, with regards to the terms and conditions 17 that we're going put in there. And that's I fix around 18 the community. But some other places, like yesterday 19 they talk about, and this morning they talk about it, 20 there is some place that has space in-between. 21 So we're from Deh Cho Dene, and not too 22 long ago, people don't talk about very much of it, but I 23 want to mention, we have to work from one house, not 24 separate houses. So if that one house, that -- that says 25 there's one (1) room that needs to be cleaned, we can

50
  1  talk about it and address that issue.  
  2                 So that's how -- we got to think about it
  3  that way.  And there's still -- there's still tomorrow
  4  yet so until then let's think about it and then we can
  5  talk about that and make it better for us in the future.
  6                 See what the Elders say, do not let go of
  7  your land.  And also they say that in 1921 when the
  8  treaty was there we not -- we're not going to let that
  9  go; two (2) things, the land and the treaty we're not
 10  letting go.
 11                 So how we're going to do it, we need to --
 12  we need to address some of the things and I think it's
 13  already started and I think we could do it.
 14                 So that's what I want when I talk about
 15  things like this, it's something that is very big.  You
 16  think -- think of all -- you think about it and pretty
 17  soon you will see it.  But it's been -- it's been like
 18  this for a while now and sometimes you see something then
 19  it disappears again.
 20                 But we're going to have use our Elders
 21  here and a lot of them are Elders and we need to depend
 22  on them.  So we're still going to be addressing it, we
 23  know that.  And so thank you very much.  Thank you.
 24                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Thanks there, Jonas. 
 25  Mahsi.  I wonder if we can move on with our agenda.  We

1 were expecting a presentation from the Deh Gah Got'ie 2 First Nation, but I've talked to the Chief and they 3 weren't able to send a spokesperson, but they have 4 representatives here. 5 What we could do is we could have written 6 submissions, written comments sent to our office and we 7 will then accept them and put them into the record. So 8 just for the record we will be talking to the Chief for 9 some -- some comments on the land use plan. 10 Again, to the agenda, this portion we'd 11 like to now open it to the governments. We'd like to 12 call up the representative for the Government of the 13 Northwest Territories, if somebody back there is ready to 14 go. And followed by that maybe DIAND, somebody from 15 Indian Affairs. 16 And that should take us up to lunch, I 17 think. So if we can, could people make their way up to - 18 - to the front, to the microphone. Number 17 I believe 19 it is. 20 Introduce yourself and whomever is with 21 you and we'll get into the presentation. 22 23 (BRIEF PAUSE) 24 25 MR. TOM BEAULIEU: Hello, my name is Tom

1 Beaulieu, I'm the Associate Deputy Minister of 2 Environment and Natural Resources. I'm here for the GNWT 3 Department for the -- giving our perspective on the 4 Dehcho draft land use plan. The GNWT Departments have 5 been working closely together and I'm here today to talk 6 about the GNWT's perspective on the current draft Dehcho 7 land use plan. 8 I'll go through the presentation and if 9 there's any questions we'll have some people here with 10 me, and myself, to try to answer some of the questions. 11 The GNWT recognizes and appreciates the 12 hard work and dedication the Deh Cho Land Use Planning 13 Committee has -- has done. Once completed and approved 14 the Deh Cho Land Use Plan will be a very important and 15 valuable guide for Dehcho people, developers, government 16 and other stakeholders. 17 The GNWT recognizes the process for 18 creating a land use plan is very complex and time 19 consuming. We support the co-operative approach to 20 developing a draft land use plan for the Dehcho and 21 understand the challenges it presents. 22 The GNWT review of this version, as well 23 as past versions to the plan, is working towards a plan 24 that can be implemented. This plan is for the Dehcho 25 region. As a party to the agreement, the GNWT is

1 considering the benefits to all residents of the NWT. 2 This draft was first in the NWT -- is the 3 first in NWT to develop prior to a final agreement. The 4 GNWT needs to be sure that the broader interests of that 5 agreement are not compromised. 6 The GNWT review involved multiple 7 departments: Environment Natural Resources, the former 8 Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs now referred to as the 9 Department of Aboriginal Affairs and Inter Governmental 10 Relations, Municipal and Community Affairs, Industry 11 Tourism and Investment, Education Culture Employment, 12 Transportation and Justice. 13 The review included specific departmental 14 subject matter. This input can help to ensure the final 15 draft land use plan, the GNWT can help in implementing. 16 The MAA provide -- the, I'm sorry. The 17 IMA provides for a final draft land use plan that 18 promotes social, cultural, economic well being of all 19 residents and communities in the Dehcho, having regard to 20 interests of all Canadians, and find a balance between 21 development opportunities, social, ecological constraints 22 which reflect community values and priorities, while 23 taking into consideration the value of all Canadians. 24 Specifically, the approved plan will be a 25 land management tool that provides guidance to the

1 Regulatory Agents and the decision makers regarding 2 development projects, protected areas and other potential 3 land uses. 4 The GNWT interests regarding the plan 5 include communities in the area of health, social 6 services, lands, transportation, infrastructure and 7 energy. Economic benefits in the area of tourism, 8 forestry, mining, oil and gas and wildlife harvesting. 9 Environment in areas of air quality, wildlife, forest and 10 protected areas. 11 To date -- work to date supports informed 12 decision making. The committee has done a considerable 13 amount of valuable work including sound technical 14 information, extensive land mapping, economic models, 15 considerable community consultation and ecosystem based 16 approached. 17 The current draft plan aligns with some 18 GNWT polices such as the sustainable development policy. 19 The current draft plan also aligns with some GNWT joint 20 initiatives such as the NWT protected area strategy. 21 Decision makers need to ensure that the 22 land provides economic opportunity to NWT residents while 23 sustaining the environment for the future. 24 The draft plan must be based on the 25 interim measurement -- Interim Measures Agreement, work

1 within the existing -- and work within the existing 2 policy of legislation and consider a balance approach for 3 land use and balance between economic development and 4 protecting the environment. 5 And as a party to the Interim Measurements 6 Agreement, the GNWT must respect its intent and process 7 and cannot approve a plan that goes beyond the intent of 8 the Interim Measures Agreement. This is because the GNWT 9 want to be able to implement a plan that aligns with the 10 IMA and the existing policy and legislation. 11 In order to complete the final draft, more 12 time will be needed. The current target date of March 13 31st, 2006 will likely have to be extended. The GNWT 14 will follow with -- follow up with the Planning Committee 15 and Canada to find a way to work together towards a final 16 draft plan. 17 There are things the parties need to 18 discuss. The GNWT staff and its -- in this regional 19 forum will have an opportunity to listen to the public 20 concerns and use information to move forward. 21 To conclude, there's more work to be done. 22 We look forward to working with all parties and we are 23 confident the end result will be an important land 24 management tool within the Dehcho. Thank you. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Tom. Thanks

1 for the presentation. If there's any questions it's good 2 time to raise them. 3 Heidi...? 4 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: First I'd like to thank 5 you for coming today and -- and making your presentation. 6 We do have a few questions for you so maybe we'll take 7 them one by one and if you can respond to them, great. 8 And if not, we'll certainly have follow-up. 9 In your presentation and also throughout 10 your submission, the GND -- GNWT has mentioned their 11 concern about the plan being inconsistent with the IMA or 12 legislation. Yet no where in this submission is there a 13 clear example of that. 14 So I was wondering if you can tell us or 15 give us a specific example of how the plan is not 16 consistent with the IMA or existing legislation. 17 MR. TOM BEAULIEU: Okay. Thank you, 18 Heidi. I will ask my assistant Jane McMullen to answer 19 the question. 20 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: The question refers 21 to the submission primarily and actually there is a table 22 in the submission which outlines these specific 23 conformity requirements and terms that are inconsistent 24 and again, as Tom's noted, are the places where we would 25 expect to work forward on those.

1 It's important to note, too, that we 2 didn't offer, except in very few cases, alternative 3 wording because as is noted in the Interim Measure 4 Agreement and as people agree that there -- there's -- 5 Land Management within the NWT and within the Dehcho is 6 very much a co-operative effort with multiple agencies 7 involved. 8 So we did not feel it was our place to put 9 wording on the table rather than have people talk about 10 the specific items and come up with some good wording. 11 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: The -- sorry. The 12 table you're referring to is on page 9 of the submission 13 and I realize people don't have this. But the table 14 lists all of the conformity requirements that the GNWT 15 feels is inconsistent. 16 And you've suggested we delete those but 17 nowhere in this submission or any previous submissions 18 has the GNWT explained how they are inconsistent. And 19 it's only by knowing what the problem is that we can 20 begin to address it. We still do not understand what the 21 problem is. 22 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: Yeah, that's -- we 23 can get into that moving forward, but again, that's why 24 it's important co-operatively because black and white, 25 back and forth without the dialogue, it's hard to

1 understand. 2 We have to recognize that within the 3 existing policy and legislation, means within the context 4 of land management, resource management and other 5 elements as well. 6 So that's something that we definitely 7 have to talk about. But I think we can leave those 8 details 'til later. 9 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: I'm going to move on to 10 the next question then. 11 Also, he didn't only mention in your 12 presentation, but also in your submission, there seems to 13 be a concern from the GNWT's perspective that we have 14 misinterpreted the intent of the IMA in that the land use 15 plan is, in your words, only meant to guide, not direct 16 the governments with respect to land management within 17 the Dehcho territory. I guess we're a little bit 18 concerned about that and so we, you know, we looked at 19 what's happening in other regions. 20 Now first of all, the word 'guide', if you 21 look it up in the dictionary, does not necessarily mean 22 that it can only provide guidance in the form of 23 recommendations, it actually is defined as to manage or 24 direct. 25 And this is consistent with other land use

1 plans in the north, specifically, as mentioned, in the 2 McKenzie Valley and as approved in the Gwich'in land use 3 plan. They're -- those land use plans also are meant to 4 guide and direct in terms of actually setting 5 requirements, not merely providing a recommendation. 6 Furthermore the IMA sets out legally 7 binding implementation vehicles such as land withdrawals 8 and binding policy direction on the Mackenzie Valley 9 Resource Management Board. So I guess I'm curious about 10 how the GNWT arrived at their interpretation of the IMA 11 that says the plan is not meant to provide any binding 12 requirements for regulations? 13 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: I think that's 14 something else that we can get into later when 15 discussions on a path forward. But there's certainly 16 matters there to consider and to consider the fact that 17 it is an interim agreement. 18 We're certainly not disagreeing with the - 19 - the land use values and objectives that were presented. 20 Not by any means. 21 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: The next one also 22 referring to that -- that table that you talked about and 23 in the submission states that a number of the conforming 24 requirements and actions should be deleted from the plan 25 because they overlap with different items under

1 discussion, either at the negotiation table or through 2 the -- or primarily through the IMA. 3 And the submission lists commissioner's 4 land, land withdrawals, land and water regulation, forest 5 management, the NWT protected area strategy, and tourism. 6 And the submission says the GNWT would not be able to 7 approve an interim draft land use plan that contains 8 elements related to these matters that would impact on 9 processes defined in the IMA or compromise ongoing 10 negotiations. 11 Well, other than commissioner's land, all 12 of those items are meant to be the very things we are 13 planning for. We are meant to plan for forestry. We are 14 meant to play for tourism. So how does the GNWT suggest 15 we reconcile your submission that says we can't address 16 these, but yet we're meant to plan for them? 17 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: We agree with you 100 18 percent, Heidi, and that's probably not the answer you 19 want to hear. But the reason that's in that regard again 20 is going back to the IMA in which it notes an integrated 21 resource management system and the land use plan is one 22 (1) tool in that system. 23 So, we don't -- as I stated a moment ago, 24 there's no disagreement with values and objectives 25 stated. It's just the how's in order to be able to

1 implement, and that's a very sincere thought. The GNWT 2 does want to be able to implement. There's some work 3 that needs to be done and that's basically all we're 4 saying. 5 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: All right. I guess, I 6 want to sum up, you know, some of our concerns because 7 when you look at the submission the GNWT is recommending 8 that we delete nineteen (19) of the twenty-seven (27) 9 conformity requirements in the plan. Delete ten (10) of 10 seventeen (17) actions in the plan including some that 11 are directed strictly at Dehcho First Nations or other 12 parties and have nothing to do with the GNWT. 13 And they're suggesting a number of 14 revisions in collaboration with the GNWT on all remaining 15 actions and conformity requirements. You've also asked 16 us to completely remove all recommendations from the 17 plan, put these in the background document and then sever 18 any mention of the background document in the plan so 19 that it cannot provide guidance. 20 Given that this plan is to be approved by 21 all three (3) parties, I guess I'm interested in what the 22 views of the other parties are, should we comply with 23 GNWT's request on this, because those are major -- major 24 revisions that essentially gut most of the plan. 25 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: And, again, there's a

1 bit of a misinterpretation there. Those were flagging 2 the ones to be held for future cooperation and it was 3 said a minute ago the fact of the matter is that there 4 are, as you've just suggested, multi-parties involved. 5 So, again, the GNWT did not want to unilaterally put 6 something on the table and it does not feel that this is 7 a negotiation process, per se. 8 Now, that I just realized came out perhaps 9 wrong. The document is to be a land management tool and 10 not take the place of other mechanisms that are on the 11 go. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Adrian Boyd. 13 Adrian Boyd and then Rick Lafferty and then Roy Fabian. 14 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 15 I guess my concern is that like I've read your 16 submission, I read it a number of times. And we've heard 17 the communities chatting for the last couple of days and 18 we're hearing your presentation this morning. 19 And I'm getting the impression that what 20 you've submitted here in writing is not your -- I'm 21 getting the impression here that you're telling me that 22 that's not the intent; that you don't -- when you say 23 delete a number of conformity requirements and actions 24 and eliminate a slew or all of the recommendations, it -- 25 what -- I guess, what is the committee supposed to look

1 at? 2 Are we supposed to look at the GNWT's 3 suggestion that we're going to collaborate and work for 4 it further or are we going -- does that mean that we 5 would ignore this submission? 6 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: No, it certainly 7 doesn't. As I say, the submission flags the areas that 8 need work. The delete was "delete, at the moment," the 9 way they are worded so that further collaboration could 10 go on. So it's not inconsistent at all. 11 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: I apologize. I mean, 12 I'm not going to belabour the point but I still find it a 13 little bit inconsistent, but I'll leave it to the 14 communities. I would be interested to see what the 15 communities think about the suggestions from the GNWT. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Okay, Rick 17 Lafferty. 18 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: Thank you. I -- 19 just on your third slide there you say the GNWT's 20 interests are communities, economy, benefits, and 21 environment. But I get the impression that it's more 22 than that. 23 You know, there's -- there's -- and maybe 24 it's just -- just the way I view the GNWT but there seems 25 to be coming from the GNWT a view that -- that this is --

1 this is more how the GNWT would control a Dehcho land use 2 plan rather than really looking at what is coming from 3 the communities. 4 You know, it doesn't -- it doesn't see any 5 -- I don't see any cultural or -- or heritage. I mean, 6 communities, to me, from a GNWT perspective means macka 7 (phonetic) structures and municipal boundaries not the 8 aboriginal communities as we see them. 9 Economy and benefits, you know, there's a 10 negotiation process going on between Canada and the GNWT 11 for resource revenue sharing and devolution and all that 12 stuff which, you know, if the Federal Government is 13 offloading it, it -- it can only go to the GNWT or the 14 First Nations. 15 And we're saying, I believe, that it 16 should come to the First Nations first and if there are 17 reasons why some elements should go to the GNWT that -- 18 maybe that -- that can be done. 19 And certainly from an environmental 20 perspective I don't see that GNWT has much of an interest 21 now other than, you know, perhaps some interest in -- in 22 communication systems and transportation corridors. But 23 can you just clarify for me, you know, what -- what is 24 the GNWT interest in the Dehcho? 25 And -- and what is your concept of a land

1 use plan, because I get the impression that it's 2 significantly different than what we see as a land use 3 plan. Mahsi. 4 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: Thank you for your 5 question, Richard. Basically you're right. There's many 6 things that -- there's many processes on the go that 7 speak to economic development, development strategies, 8 the environment, those sorts of things. And that's what 9 we're saying is that all those things have to be some way 10 connected and not relied solely on the land use plan. 11 Certainly the land use plan is a very 12 important instrument in this. But basically you've 13 reinforced what we've said. There's multiple things 14 happening that are very important to people. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Rick...? 16 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: Yeah, I understand 17 that there's multiple things happening. But who are the 18 people you're referring to from your perspective? Are 19 you referring to all of the non-aboriginal people in 20 Yellowknife, perhaps, are interested in what's happening 21 in terms of land use planning in the Dehcho? 22 Is it the people in Hay River or are you 23 really coming from a perspective that, you know, these 24 people in the Dehcho require a land use plan which 25 reflects their culture and heritage and their traditional

1 uses of the land because I don't get under the impression 2 that you're talking about our people. What people are 3 you talking about? 4 You know, that's, I guess, some of the 5 clarity. And once we know which people you're talking 6 about, then I think we'd get a better idea of what your 7 interests in the Dehcho Land Use Plan is. 8 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: It's certainly a 9 Dehcho Land Use Plan, there's no doubt about that, and it 10 would -- the Territorial Government has been, and 11 continues to be, a government of all the Northwest 12 Territories, so those are two (2) facts, or things, that 13 we have to consider. 14 And the Interim Measures Agreement and 15 agreement between three (3) parties is where an -- 16 ongoing negotiations and that sort of thing that there -- 17 were common expectations as to what would move forward. 18 So I don't -- it's definitely a Dehcho 19 Land Use Plan. I'm -- I hope that answers your question. 20 21 (BRIEF PAUSE) 22 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there. Roy 24 Fabian, Chief Roy Fabian, K'atlodeeche Chief. 25

1 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 2 3 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: I want to say in 4 English, and I want to say -- but I try to talk to them 5 and try and talk to Tom Beaulieu. I know he works with 6 the Government of the Northwest Territories, but in the 7 past there when we started, when us Dene people, when 8 actually we met first time with the Government, we never 9 used to have people working for us with the Government. 10 When there's people in the Government, 11 there should be people sitting on there. If -- if they 12 know how the Dene people feel and think and when I see it 13 that way, there's MLA's sitting for us but -- but for us 14 Dene people for the Dehcho region, how we're -- they're 15 thinking, they don't seem to have a respect for us. 16 So -- so what they're talking to us now, 17 we are -- they're asking us for something. I think we 18 looking -- we listen and very careful. 19 It seems like they're talking and it seems 20 like they're fixing everything for themself. We can't -- 21 we can't seem to back them up on -- on that. So it's 22 hard for us. 23 So that's all I want to say -- in English. 24 25 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED)

1 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: I try to -- you know, 2 I want to say it in English because it's just important 3 that the message gets across. Like, one of the -- one of 4 the issues I have as a K'atlodeeche First Nation Chief 5 here on the Hay River Reserve, is that as far as we're 6 concerned we signed a Treaty with the Government of 7 Canada and the people we're going to talk to is the 8 Government of Canada in regard to any issues regarding to 9 land. 10 The -- the administration of the -- of 11 Canada under the Department of Indian Affairs set up a, 12 you know, a government that they -- today, we've got our 13 -- we've got to deal with. 14 And -- and, you know, like in the past as 15 Dene people we really thought that the Government had 16 good intentions and we wanted to see some of our own 17 people, like Tom, be part of the Government, because they 18 can reflect some of the issues and concepts and ideas and 19 world views that we have as Dene people. 20 And -- and we were hoping that these 21 people will try to protect some of these ways. But one 22 thing we didn't realize is that the Government policy, 23 and that these people have to work with a policy; they 24 can't go against it. 25 So -- and the policy was not developed by

1 us as Dene people, it was developed by other people in 2 Ottawa and Yellowknife and these people had no idea what 3 Dene people were about. 4 All these -- to them all they saw was a 5 bunch of savages living on the land, you know. Like, I 6 remember one (1) lawyer told me, you know, like, if, you 7 know, Dene people were running around bare ass in the 8 bush. You know, that's a concept of, you know, of the 9 Dene people. 10 And for me, I -- with that kind of 11 thinking and relationship, you know, they couldn't help 12 but come up with, you know, apartheid, you know, level, 13 you know, policies that have been applied on our land and 14 on our people. 15 And, you know, like, today we try to talk 16 about traditional knowledge and the importance of how we 17 know the land and applying those concepts and we were 18 hoping through the land -- the Land Use Plan we were 19 going to get some of that stuff into -- into the process. 20 And some of the -- some of the things for 21 me as, you know, like, talking about traditional 22 knowledge and traditional values and beliefs. 23 You know, like for me, the Government of 24 the Northwest Territories, I refuse to get any kind of 25 permits from them because they don't have a right over

1 me. I'm a Treaty Indian, I got a Treaty Card that says I 2 have jurisdiction over this land, over the Government of 3 the Northwest Territories, I'm not going to take any of 4 your permits. 5 Like one of the things, for example, I'll 6 tell you of how they mismanage the land is, you know, as 7 Dene people, when I -- my father raised me to go and cut, 8 like, if we need wood, I need to go out in the bush and 9 cut wood. 10 And the policy is basically you never cut 11 down a green tree. I always cut down a dead tree for 12 wood. 13 But under the Government policy, like, one 14 day I, you know, I was told you got to get a -- you got 15 to get a permit to go and cut wood. And so I went and I 16 asked, Well, what's this -- I need a permit. And they 17 said, well, okay, here -- where, pick a section of land 18 where you want to cut wood. 19 And they had it all broken off into little 20 sections and -- and -- and so I said, okay, I'll, you 21 know, this one, I don't know, like this one looks good, 22 so I -- I picked it, I went there, and there's no wood 23 there. 24 Now there's only a lot of green trees and 25 I couldn't cut any wood. So then I thought, well, oh,

1 hell with it, I'll just go and cut some -- I'll go find a 2 place where there's good wood and I'll cut the wood 3 there. 4 So their concept of -- of management is 5 that if you want wood, you got to plan ahead. This is 6 the way the English people plan. So go and cut down all 7 the live trees and leave it for a couple of seasons, 8 it'll be wood. 9 Now that's -- to Dene people, that's 10 breaking the Dene law. You know, those trees are, to 11 Dene people, they're spiritual beings and if you cut down 12 a something, a green tree, you're killing a spirit. And 13 -- and these kind of concepts is where I see the 14 mismanagement, you know, taking place. 15 The way I see it is that the Government of 16 the Northwest Territories is mismanaging our land. And 17 so now we thought through the Land Use Plan we're going 18 to have an opportunity to start managing it the way we 19 think it should be managed. 20 But now from the questions that were 21 raised, you're questioning us and -- and your answers are 22 really vague, you know, and inconsistent. They're, you 23 know, like, they're criticizing but there's no solutions 24 in place. And, you know, and is that the way the 25 Government of the Northwest -- you now, you know, for me

1 I don't want to have nothing to do with the Government of 2 the Northwest Territories. 3 I don't want to have nothing to do with 4 you, because of the way you're operating and the, you 5 know, like -- and for me, I'm sitting here feeling like, 6 boy, something's been pulled over me but I really can't 7 pinpoint what -- what it is that something was done, 8 something's been done here that I can pinpoint exactly 9 what it is, but there's something not right about this 10 process. 11 And, you know, and for me if that's the 12 way the Government of the Northwest Territories wants to 13 operate, then I want to have nothing to do with you. 14 If there's not going to be any integrity 15 in the process where you need to call a spade a spade and 16 say exactly what you mean, because that's what we have to 17 do. 18 You know, we have to say exactly what we 19 mean, like, you know, for me, I was really impressed with 20 Heidi and the work that she did, because when she met 21 with the community, boy we wanted a whole bunch of 22 things, and she just kept saying, Look, here's the 23 agreement that you have to follow and you need to follow 24 that. And try to keep us in our place. 25 You know, and that was really important to

1 me and I thought, you know, like it's important that, you 2 know, we live up to our agreements. 3 You know what? You know, like we signed 4 as a First Nation, we signed a Treaty in 18 or in 1900 5 and we've lived according to that agreement for the last 6 hundred and five (105) years, hundred and six (106) 7 years. 8 Now Canada sure didn't live up to their 9 end of the agreement. They said they weren't going to 10 kind of interfere in our way of life as long as the sun 11 rises in the East and the rivers flow and the grass 12 grows, this agreement will never change. 13 That was what our people were told. And 14 yet today, you know, like for me, the Land Use Plan we're 15 struggling with it today. And, you know, Harry raised 16 some really important issues, you know, and Jonas talked 17 about those same issues. 18 Because basically what Canada had done is 19 they change us people, they change us. We were Dene 20 people at one time and they agreed that they weren't 21 going to change us. There weren't going to be any 22 interference with our way of life, but yet they put us 23 through residential school, they applied the English 24 education where very few of us people sitting around this 25 room are no longer full Dene people.

1 And so we're struggling with it. We're 2 having a hard time with -- we talk about owning the land. 3 You know, we -- as Dene people, when I -- when I listen 4 to the Elders, I don't hear them say, you know, they say 5 (SPOKEN IN NATIVE TONGUE) we come from the land. It 6 doesn't say the land come from us. 7 So the, we're, you know, we -- we have 8 those concepts and so that's where GNWT is coming from. 9 They want to apply their foreign concepts on us and a lot 10 of these concepts and these policies are, you know, are 11 to me is just applying apartheid to us Dene people, where 12 we can't say anything about ourselves and, you know, our 13 -- our views and aspirations are not kept up here. 14 So anybody can come in here and, you know, 15 shoot down anything we're doing. Anybody can come and 16 say, well, you know, this is the way that Dene should do 17 it. 18 And for me, I -- I have a hard time with 19 that. You know, like in the past, we agreed to certain 20 things happening because of the direction things were 21 going politically. 22 For example, we out at the Dene National 23 Assembly agreed back, I think it was in 1988, to transfer 24 health to the Government because at that time we thought 25 we were going to be in control of it. But since then,

1 since then, there's no more Dene people involved in the 2 process. We're no longer going to be in control of the 3 Territorial Government. 4 So for us who continue to support the 5 Government of the Northwest Territories and look at 6 what's happening. The health services in our area is not 7 working. Like I can't make a -- I can't go into town and 8 make an appointment. You know, unless I'm dying, you 9 know, the doctor will see me. 10 You know, that's -- that's the way it's 11 operating now and that's because we agreed to transfer 12 health to the Government of the Northwest Territories and 13 today I think it's not working for us. 14 So, you know, and now we're talking about 15 land. Do we want to give it them? Think about this as 16 Dene people. And think -- and the Government of the 17 Northwest Territories need to think about it, too. 18 You know, you mis -- you're mismanaging 19 health. And how are you going to manage the land 20 properly and yet, you know, somehow you want us to -- to 21 go under you. Well, I'm not -- I'm not, for me, I'll 22 never agree to that. I'll never agree to that. 23 So, now I'd like these -- this land, Dene 24 Land Use Plan, I have a difficult time participating in 25 it. But we had an agreement an IMA that we're trying to

1 follow and we're going through the Dehcho process. So I 2 kept -- try to keep my integrity by getting involved in 3 the process. 4 Now because I wasn't involved right from 5 beginning, I wish we had taken a different route in doing 6 the Land Use Plan. Today I regret that. I, you know, 7 for me and I said that yesterday, when I talk about it, 8 you know, we did it in English and I -- and Jonas talked 9 about that. Because we did it in English, we weakened 10 our position. 11 Just by switching from Dene to English, we 12 lost 90 percent, 100 -- 99 percent of our -- of what we 13 really wanted. 14 And the English people sit there and read 15 and say, you know in their -- with their English minds, 16 well, this is what they mean, and they have no idea, you 17 know, what the Elders are talking about. 18 And unfortunately, I'm going to say this, 19 unfortunately it's not only the English people sitting 20 here that don't understand a lot -- a lot of us that are 21 sitting around the table that speak only English have 22 been, you know, raised in the English system, understand 23 only English way. We can't understand any other way. 24 And that's the problem with the Government 25 of the Northwest Territories. Unfortunately, the Dene

1 way put forward into the Government of the Northwest 2 Territories might be Dene, but in thinking like Daniel or 3 the Elders like Jim and the other people, you can't think 4 that way. 5 In fact, they had to be interpreted for, 6 for them to be able to understand what the Elders are 7 saying. 8 So, no, there's a lot of things not right 9 about this whole process. I -- I, you know, like somehow 10 the Government of Northwest Territories is trying to 11 strong arm their way into our process. Trying to make -- 12 somehow, we're going to have to deal with them, because 13 they're an existing government. They even -- they even 14 had one of their Court Judges rule that, yeah, they're a 15 legitimate government, you know. 16 But I like them to go to my Court, you 17 know. Let our Elders deal with that and see if they see 18 them as a legitimate government. Because this is our 19 land, this is -- you know, like this land has been placed 20 in our responsibility and we have jurisdiction over this 21 land. 22 We never gave that up, under a treaty or 23 anything. And today, for me, here we're putting a Land 24 Use Plan and trying to comfort the non-Dene people in 25 saying, okay, we see your views, we want to accommodate

1 you, want to share the land with you, want to accommodate 2 you and here's the Land Use Plan; that's how we're going 3 to do it, how we're going to accommodate you and your -- 4 you know, the industry and the Government and all this 5 stuff; that's what this Land Use Plan is all about. 6 But yet, you know, we -- we've still got 7 criticized and, you know, the process and for me, my 8 understanding is that the Government of the Northwest 9 Territories and Canada disagree with the way the Land Use 10 Plan went and more than likely they're not going to agree 11 to it. 12 You know, and yet, you know, they agreed 13 to the process through the IMA. We followed the IMA the 14 best we can. Now, the Government of the Northwest 15 Territories is interpreting, saying, well you guys are -- 16 did it wrong because you're -- our interpretation, you 17 guys didn't do it right. 18 But really we're not -- we're not saying 19 that. You know, like, make up your mind what you're 20 saying. You know, and this is where, you know, as Dene 21 people, we always had to deal with the lack of integrity 22 of the Government, because they'll try to talk out of 23 three (3) sides of their mouth all the time. 24 And for me, I have a difficult time with 25 that, because I'm going to say what I'm going to say. I

1 -- I don't hold any punches. 2 You know, and for me, as a Chief, I get 3 raked over the coals for things that I do at the table by 4 my own community. You know, and so I got to be careful. 5 I got to make sure that I'm standing up 100 percent for 6 my community. 7 But at the same time, the Elders believe 8 we shared with Canada and we need to accommodate them. 9 So through the Land Use Plan, we thought was the best way 10 to do that. And -- and we've taken big steps and the 11 Government of the Northwest Territories here is telling 12 us, well, you didn't go far enough, you know. 13 Well, I guess we're going to have to go 14 back to the drawing board and maybe the Government of the 15 Northwest Territories needs to really clarify exactly 16 what it is, like, the questions Richard asked are really 17 valid questions. 18 Who are you raising these concerns for? 19 You know, like one of the -- one of the problems for me 20 with this whole thing is talking about stakeholders? You 21 know, their stakeholders there, you know, the 22 stakeholders, you know, there's some -- somebody out 23 there that's got a stake in what we're doing. 24 But, jeez, who's the biggest stakeholder 25 here? You know, it's us Dene people. We've given up

1 everything, our lives and people have died and, you know, 2 everything has happened to us as Dene people. Today 3 we're still -- people are still dying from alcohol and 4 drug abuse and other things. And, you know, we -- we've 5 suffered a long time under your process and you want us 6 to continue to going that way. 7 But we're trying to say, just a minute 8 here. And at one time, as Dene people, you know, we had 9 independence, it was ours. One way we see as ga -- 10 regaining that independence but sharing the land at the 11 same time. 12 And I -- I just, you know, here the 13 Government playing games with us. It's -- and I -- I 14 have a hard time with that. You know, and that's why, 15 for me, like I said, you know, the Hay River Reserve, we 16 -- we had to do things to protect ourselves; that's why 17 we're living on a reserve today, to protect ourselves 18 because the Government of the Northwest Territories 19 aren't going to protect us. 20 The Federal Government wasn't going to 21 protect and the only reason they gave us a reserve 22 because they had to based on the treaty. Now, if they 23 could have avoided the issue at that time, I don't think 24 they would have gave it to us. 25 You know, but so today, we have an

1 opportunity as Dene people to try to come up to terms 2 with this issue of us sharing the land with Canada. So, 3 you know, and -- and we try to do the best we can. I 4 think we've moved a long ways. We've moved a long ways. 5 And yet today we're being told that 6 there's some things wrong with it, some things are not 7 right. You know, like, you know, and for me, the Elders 8 tell me, look young people are not going to go back on 9 the land and live off the land, so you need to prepare so 10 that they can use the wage economy to make a living. 11 So we planned for that in our Land Use 12 Plan. But you know, I just have a difficult time when 13 people are raising issues and -- and there's -- it's 14 inconsistent issues and I -- I have a hard time with 15 that, and -- and then -- and then all this stuff that 16 I've lived with all my life starts coming up and I have 17 to start talking to those issues, and that's why, for me, 18 I wanted to speak today. 19 Now, I've been sitting here and listening 20 to all the people and, you know, the goal is to try to 21 share the land, but don't, you know, we lived on the land 22 long before you did, you came along. 23 We have dreams and aspirations and things 24 that we want to achieve ourselves. You know, like and 25 for me, you know, I'm fifty-four (54) years old. I don't

1 have much work life left in -- in me here. 2 You know, and I can't think about myself. 3 I got a granddaughter and a grandchild, a grandson. I 4 need to think about them and how are things going to be 5 for them. And I don't want them -- I don't want my 6 grandchildren to go through the same things that I did, 7 you know, in my lifetime, the things I had to compromise 8 myself. 9 I had to abandon my Dene issues just to be 10 able to work. I don't want my children to -- to go 11 through that. 12 So that's why it's so important to me that 13 this Land Use Plan to some degree I don't agree with it, 14 but I am willing to work with it, because at least it 15 spells some, you know, a little bit of control where we 16 have no control right now. We got no control. You know, 17 like, there's going to be the Pine Point Mine is going to 18 open back up. I don't have a say on it. 19 So, no, those are the issues that, for me, 20 are in place. So, it's difficult for me to hear -- to 21 hear -- to sit here and listen to, you know, issues being 22 raised but no, well, that's not what we meant. 23 Well, say what you mean, you know. Tell 24 us exactly what you mean, maybe we can deal with the 25 issue. But if we -- you say something and then the next

1 sentence, well, I didn't really mean that, then it gets 2 confusing for us. 3 You know, we try to be as honest as we 4 can. We put forward what we could live with and through 5 the Land Use Plan. So, you know, I just hope that, you 6 know, you guys really think about how you approach this 7 whole thing, because I'll tell you one (1) thing, for me 8 I don't trust the territorial government. 9 And it's -- you know, I don't want to deal 10 with them, you know. So that's my view of it. Mahsi. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, there, Roy. 12 It's going to 12:00. It's almost lunchtime. Maybe what 13 we should do is just break and resume the discussion back 14 at one o'clock. So we'll have the GNWT people come back 15 to the front and you guys will entertain us for the next 16 hour or so. 17 Okay, let's break for lunch. Just a quick 18 announcement, announcement on transcripts. Transcripts 19 are available on the web-site. What's the web-site? 20 Well, it is www.tscript.com. Again, it's 21 www.tscript.com. Okay, have a good lunch. 22 23 --- Upon recessing at 12:00 p.m. 24 --- Upon resuming at 1:40 p.m. 25

1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Can we have 2 people come back to the chairs, please, to the seats, the 3 Territorial Government Officials, can you get up to the 4 Microphone Number 17, so we can continue our discussion. 5 Somebody is showing the sign of tightening the screws, 6 yes. Okay. 7 Okay. Executive Director, Heidi Wiebe, a 8 couple of announcements, please. 9 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Okay. We've added a 10 few new tables around the circle here, and the reason for 11 that is to try and get some of the people behind us at 12 the table. So what we'd like to do is get a few 13 representatives from each of the two other Governments 14 from -- from Canada and from GNWT, as well as a few 15 Industry representatives and a few of the NGOs, at these 16 last few tables here. 17 We can't fit everybody but at least this 18 will facilitate some more discussions and as questions 19 come up, we will of course have a microphone passed 20 around behind us for those who -- who also want to come 21 to the table. But we felt we needed to make some changes 22 in the setup here to -- to bring people to the table. 23 Also, as you walk in, there's a flipchart 24 at the door that says "Discussion Topics" on it, and 25 right now it is blank.

1 As you know, the focus of tomorrow is to 2 have open discussions on topics of interest to all of the 3 delegates here. We have a number of suggestions in the 4 Agenda, but as we did last year, we also encourage you to 5 come up and write whatever you would like to see 6 discussed tomorrow on that flipchart. We'll make sure 7 there's markers available there. 8 And tomorrow morning, once all the 9 presentations are finished, we will prioritize the 10 discussions, based on interest and time, and basically 11 have an open-mike discussion on things of interest to 12 people. 13 So please feel free to write your topics 14 on the Board and I guess just a reminder that the 15 transcripts from yesterday are already available on-line. 16 The Website is currently www.tscript.com. 17 Once the Forum is finished, we will make 18 sure that there's a link to our Website, but for right 19 now, that's where you can download yesterday's 20 transcripts, and as you can see there's a very quick 21 turnaround, so probably same time tomorrow we'll have 22 today's transcripts. 23 Also we've had a few questions about the 24 submissions, as per our process, all of the submissions 25 and comments that have been given to the Committee are

1 available for download on our Website, and that's 2 www.dehcholands.org. 3 So if you have any questions or you want 4 to see any of the submissions that people have given us, 5 those are all available, they're all public, and they're 6 on our Website. Thank you very much. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If we can 8 continue, we have Tom and his Assistant up front there 9 with the microphone. If there are any comments, any 10 questions, again, the floor is open. I know that we had 11 a lot of energy just before we broke at lunch and I 12 wonder do we -- are we just too full to ask questions now 13 or what? 14 So any comments, and questions? Gabe 15 Hardisty, Pehdzeh Ki Deh First Nation. 16 CHIEF GABE HARDISTY: Mahsi. You know 17 that I'm Gabe Hardisty, Chief on the Pehdzeh Ki Deh First 18 Nation. 19 20 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 21 22 When you see people that are Government 23 people, you kind of ask them something, they always refer 24 back to the five-dollar Treaty payment, that's where 25 their mind is, and they always talk about it, that --

1 they talk that way. 2 Our Elders, when they accepted the Treaty, 3 when they had Treaty, how many times they had re- 4 questioned them and told them with regards to the land 5 that you guys gave us this Treaty and we accepted the 6 Treaty. 7 We have to be thankful to each other for 8 what you see as friendship Treaty, that's what it is for. 9 From thereon it's been about just a little over a hundred 10 years now since that Treaty. 11 How many times I used to talk to my uncle, 12 who was there attending the first Treaty, Baptiste, that 13 was his name, and he was the one that spoke on behalf of 14 the people at the Treaty. We are not going to get 15 nothing in return but we got to get something in return 16 if we are going to do something, because it's our land, 17 and it's not that you gave us this money for our land. 18 And then he asked him four (4) times in a 19 row, he said, is this money the Treaty money, accepted on 20 behalf of our land, they said no, four (4) times. 21 And now the Crown, they're the ones that 22 made the Treaty with -- with the Dene People. They gave 23 them a statement, they sat side by side and they talk 24 about what they feel comfortable with. There is going to 25 be education, health, housing, and also you got to

1 protect your land, that's what they talked about, all 2 this was included. 3 And now for this long, ever since the 4 Treaty, back then it was respected, it seems like it's 5 not being respected today, not being recognized. We're 6 not white people, we are Dene People. We can't just live 7 and follow and live a white man's life the way it is 8 right now. It's hard for us to do that, to turn around. 9 And it is with the Crown that we had 10 Treaty, those are the ones we talked to. And -- and now 11 we have these other people coming in, because Canada gave 12 this to the GNWT Government and nobody even consulted us 13 and told us this was going to happen. 14 Even our negotiations, they gave it to the 15 other people, they never consult with us. All this is 16 happening behind us, because we weren't consulted. 17 And now, Canada give this to another 18 Government and that's Territorial Government. And he 19 said, told me that you guys are responsible for the 20 Territorial, so here. 21 And, where's our Treaty? What happened to 22 our Treaty? And how about those -- those things that 23 they -- they promised us when we accepted the Treaty? 24 They took it all back. All this is all taken back. Now 25 we have to pay a thousand bucks before you go into a

1 Treaty House? 2 They broke their promises, and they are 3 not even ashamed in telling us exactly what they want to 4 see Dene People do. They want us to follow them. I 5 don't agree with that and it's not right with me. 6 In 1972, ever since Settlement Council, I 7 was a Chief at that time. My Elders talked to me. They 8 said there's -- it will be good if we can have -- if we 9 have two (2) bosses or two (2) Chiefs, it's very going to 10 be very difficult for a small community, they're right. 11 And I knew what they were referring to. And they're 12 right today. 13 Who and what was said at the Treaty? What 14 was said then? All those, it's all disappearing, all the 15 promises made, it's all been broken, it's gone now. 16 And now, you look at Wrigley, the Band 17 Council, we all worked everything out now, and we are 18 doing things the best way we know for our community. And 19 now that the Territorial Government helped us little bit, 20 they don't give us all of it. They always give us only 21 little bit, and for me that's not right. 22 Why should they get all our money when it 23 should be coming straight from Canada? They do this, 24 they do that, and they tell people this is the way and 25 this is how much money you're going to get, they do

1 everything, and -- and this -- was this the way we're 2 going to be rationed out and helped? 3 Yes, when we talk about the land, it's our 4 land; yesterday I talked about it. The Creator gave us 5 this land, he made it for us, it wasn't Government that 6 made it for us, it wasn't Government that gave it to us, 7 it's the Creator that gave it to us. He said to look 8 after it. 9 And that's what our Elders said and talk 10 about it, and that's why when they travel around on land, 11 wherever there's -- there's something that's -- that's 12 being polluted or something, they don't do these things, 13 they protect it, they look after it. 14 Even though they kill an animal, any kind 15 of animal, big animals, they use every one of it, and so 16 wherever the bones are left, they -- they don't just 17 throw it any place, they -- they give it tobacco and they 18 bury it and they say thank you, hope that you come back 19 to us in the future to help us again. 20 That's how they do things. Many times I 21 see Elders do that. 22 You look at these trees, even though 23 you're going to use it, you're going to cut it, you 24 better give it something in return. That's the kind of 25 Dene People we are and our Elders taught us.

1 That's the reason why we tell you these 2 things. Look at these papers here. For me I would like 3 to wait even during this Land -- Land Use Planning, I 4 want to wait for three (3) months, I want to work on it 5 before I say yes. 6 There's a lot of things in there that I 7 kind of disagree with. We want best for our People, we 8 want my friends next door to me to feel good and 9 comfortable with, and for my own people, they've got to 10 be comfortable with it; it's for them for the future. 11 That's why they chose me to be a Chief and 12 they -- they put me back in place. I want to do my best 13 for them; I'm not going to -- I'm not going to put them 14 in a difficult situation, that's not what I'm there for. 15 When you lie, you know, it's a big thing, 16 it comes back on you, even though, yes, you think you're 17 right, but you look back at it. Are you sure what you're 18 saying -- what you're saying is right? 19 When we ask for something, we didn't give 20 it to Territorial Government nor Canada, there's a lot of 21 things involved. And you -- but nobody is being honest 22 with us, even the Crown, they -- we didn't even know they 23 do these things, that they give -- as Canada gave 24 Territorial Government this responsibility. That wasn't 25 even consulted with us.

1 These are the things, yes, we told you a 2 story about our Treaty, we want the best. That's what 3 our Elders taught us. That's the reason why they gave us 4 this. There's not somebody that's going to look after 5 us, it's us that we have to look after our land 6 ourselves; that's what our Elders tell us. 7 It's them, they made the Indian Act, they 8 use that Bill C-31, it's not us. We -- we made it -- we 9 didn't make it so that we can feel comfortable with it, 10 no, it's them, for them they feel comfortable with it so 11 that we can't have problem with ours. That's why they 12 put that in place. 13 How many times did we hear these things, 14 these things over and over? But still, we want the best 15 for our People, but they do not agree with it. We're not 16 saying that you're no good, we're not saying you're 17 wrong, or we're not saying that you're -- we don't -- we 18 don't -- you don't deserve living on our land, no. 19 The way we live, the way we live on our 20 land, you have to understand how we feel, you got to 21 understand where we're coming from, as best for our 22 People. The things that you put on table on paper is not 23 us that put on there, it's you that do that. 24 Many times they talk about the big lands, 25 you know, we -- we hear things in -- in Edmonton,

1 Alberta, United States, even those lands, see what 2 happened to those other people. You can't just go into 3 somebody else's yard, you know, and -- and throw a pop 4 can or a garbage can, and I'm sure they'll -- they'll put 5 me in jail, because I'm a Dene Person. 6 That's how people look at us and people, 7 when they come onto our land, how come you guys don't 8 have the same respect as they have down south? It seems 9 that you -- you just do whatever you want on our land, 10 here. 11 And Territorial Government, that's the way 12 they are, they like to leave their garbage behind for 13 somebody else to clean up. 14 When you do negotiation, even for me 15 that's not strong enough for me, especially people that 16 are talking on our behalf. When something gets hard, as 17 soon as they get -- they get into a problem, they should 18 come back to us Chiefs and they -- and ask us, and that 19 so we can depend on our Elders, and we can ask them the 20 same questions that they asked us. But so, it's not 21 happening, even that. 22 So, thank you, I just thought I'll share 23 that with you. Thank you very much. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Gabe. Okay, 25 response, rebuttal? If not, further comments? The floor

1 is open. The floor is open. Adrian Boyd...? 2 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: Thank you. Thank you, 3 Mr. Chairman. To the GNWT again, I still have questions 4 about the submission. I'm still not understanding the 5 intent, when I -- when I flipped through the submission, 6 and -- and my question is going to be about the mandate 7 and -- or authority of the Plan once approved. 8 You've said in your letter: 9 "The November 2005 Draft Plan has added 10 a number of conformity requirements and 11 still retains language that is 12 directive to regulatory authorities. 13 The GNWT has significant concerns with 14 approach -- with this approach, and it 15 is unlikely that it could approve a 16 final draft plan that does not clearly 17 define expected roles and operate 18 within GNWT policy and legislation." 19 It goes on to say: 20 "So these terms can be construed in a 21 manner likely to be approved. GNWT, 22 while still promoting the intended land 23 use, values and operations." 24 You've said in here, where is it, my 25 apologies. You state:

1 "The GNWT requests that recommendations 2 be removed to the background report so 3 that misinterpretation of obligations 4 is not possible." 5 You state: 6 "The Plan is intended to guide, not 7 direct. The limited application of the 8 Plan needs to be fully recognized. In 9 November 2005 version of the Plan, a 10 considerable number of conformity 11 requirements were added. Many of the - 12 - many of these added additional terms, 13 direct regulatory authorities to take 14 specific actions. This approach is not 15 acceptable to the GNWT." 16 And there's a number of -- of statements 17 in here where you talk about the authority of the Plan. 18 And basically I'm under the impression that the GNWT does 19 not view the authority of the plan once approved in the 20 same -- in the same manner as -- as the Committee has 21 been working on for the last four (4) years. 22 So my question is: Once -- does this 23 Plan, in the GNWT's view, have any authority over 24 regulatory bodies or government, or is it as you've noted 25 in your submission, just intended to be a guide that

1 could be used or -- or not used? Mahsi. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: I noted that those 6 were fair questions, Adrian, thank you. And the intent 7 of the GNWT in making the statements it did, is because 8 regardless of the legal aspects spelled out in the Plan, 9 or in the IMA, per se, the GNWT does feel that once it 10 approves the Plan, that it's very much guided by it and 11 willing to live with it and do whatever it is that has to 12 be done. And so that's what we're working towards. 13 So the statements are not because we don't 14 agree with what is in there as far as the land-use 15 objective goes, but that we have to within -- be within 16 the system. 17 So in order to better present, we didn't 18 get into specifics because there are multi-parties 19 involved, as I indicated this morning, but just to give 20 you a better sense of why those statements were made, it 21 might be worthwhile to present an example. 22 For instance, one of the newer conformity 23 -- there is a conformity requirement, and again, this is 24 just by -- by word of example, by way of example, 25 Number 27 that talks about community infrastructure and

1 expansion. It reads: 2 "All existing community infrastructure 3 outside of current community boundaries 4 will continue as an existing use for as 5 long as it is required. The Committee 6 will consider exceptions for any future 7 applications to expand community 8 boundaries, relocate a community, or 9 develop new infrastructure." 10 And it goes on to say how this conformity 11 determination would be done. 12 The notion of having communities have a 13 strong say in what they do and how the community is 14 expanded, is not something at all that we disagree with; 15 we very much agree with it. 16 But we do recognize that to -- the basic 17 value and objective there is to accommodate growth and 18 not do it without involving those that have, obviously 19 have interests, of -- first and foremost of which is the 20 community. 21 Even though the Municipal and Community 22 Affairs Department of the GNWT is a Government 23 Department, they're very supportive at a community level 24 of things to be done. There's interest in there of 25 Indian and Northern Affairs Canada because they would be

1 expanding on to what now -- would now be considered Crown 2 Lands, and obviously, after the Dehcho process is 3 complete, there's a Dehcho First Nations' interest as a 4 whole there as well, not in any way meaning to not 5 acknowledge that there is an interest there right now. 6 So we're just suggesting that -- that that 7 one in particular might perhaps need a different wording 8 because there -- the authority for the Deh Cho Land Use 9 Planning Committee has not yet been established, it's 10 being done through the negotiations process and they're 11 still about, but that the Plan growth in the vicinity of 12 the communities, is into wild lands, and there are other 13 -- a number of things that would have to be considered in 14 those regards too. 15 So it's not as though, as has been said 16 before, that we're disagreeing with the intent of any of 17 the conformity requirements. The reason that the -- the 18 language was used around recommendations and those sorts 19 of things, to have them removed, it's just as a very 20 strong flag that there were some things there that a 21 number of people had to collectably talk about, because 22 whatever goes forward in the -- in the Draft, what's 23 referred to in the IMA as the Final Draft Land Use Plan, 24 the GNWT is very much wanting to get on with it and 25 promote what's in there.

1 And so we just want to make sure that any 2 sort of language that does come about in the absolute 3 final plan, has real clear roles and directions to people 4 that are going to be expected to do something. That's 5 all. 6 So, as I say, the -- the whole notion 7 being there's not -- the GNWT is not asserting its 8 authorities because there's multiple -- multiple, choose 9 a word, parties, people with vested interests, whatever, 10 that are going to have to pick up and live with things, 11 and, because they want to. 12 And -- and certainly there's, as far as 13 work goes and objectives go, et cetera, there's nothing 14 in the Plan right now that we're disagreeing with. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for -- 16 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: And I think that was 17 the tone of the letter too, and that's what was said with 18 the examples in there. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Further comments...? 20 Adrian. 21 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: Thank you, Jane. I 22 understand that. My question really is about the 23 authority of the Plan. I don't really need specific 24 examples. 25 For instance, we talk about the Plan being

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1 binding on regulatory authorities and Governments and 2 what I'm asking you is: Do you agree that the Plan, once 3 approved, is binding? 4 Because the Plan reads right now: 5 "By approving the Plan, Governments 6 agree to implement the terms within 7 their jurisdiction and ensure that new 8 land and water uses comply with the 9 Plan." 10 The GNWT has asked that this sentence be 11 removed from the Plan, so that draws, in my mind, the 12 question: Do you see the Plan as having any binding 13 authority at all? 14 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: And again the short 15 answer is: Yes. We very much see that the GNWT is going 16 to go forward with what's in the Plan. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Further 18 comments? Jennifer. Come up to Microphone, what is 19 that, Number 21...? Number 21. No. Microphone 21. 20 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: There's just so many 21 good looking guys, I just didn't know where to sit. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh boy. 23 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: I had two (2) 24 questions: The first is just -- relates to other work 25 that the GNWT has done in the past. The GNWT has had a

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1 really good track record with the Gwich'in Land Use Plan. 2 Back in 2003, it was submitted for a GNWT approval, and 3 it took approximately two (2) weeks for the GNWT to go 4 forward with the approval of the Gwich'in Land Use Plan. 5 And in that Plan, in Appendix 2, there 6 were fifty (50) required and recommended action items 7 that were part of the Plan. And my question, I guess, 8 goes back to page 1 in the Attachment 1 of the GNWT 9 submission, and it states here that: 10 "The GNWT requests that recommendations 11 be moved to the Background Report so 12 that misinterpretation of the 13 obligations is not possible once the 14 GNWT approves 'a Final Draft Lane Use 15 Plan'." 16 And it also says in a bullet after that: 17 "Individual references to 18 recommendation in the body of the Draft 19 Plan should be removed." 20 And my question is: Why does the GNWT 21 feel that recommendations need to be an appendix or 22 referenced separately, given that a precedent has already 23 been set with the Gwich'in Land Use Plan and having those 24 recommended and required actions part of -- part of the 25 previous Plan?

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1 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: I -- yeah, it's 2 Jennifer? 3 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Yeah, sorry. 4 Jennifer Morin with CPAWS, yeah. 5 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: Jennifer, those are 6 really good questions, and I think that what we'd like to 7 do is provide some clarity, perhaps. 8 People have been looking at the -- this 9 Plan in its entirely right now, as -- as something that 10 is similar to a -- a Plan that is achieved after a final 11 agreement has been negotiated. So, when we use language 12 like, the Draft Land Use Plan, we really see this 13 particular Plan as an interim Plan, because the 14 negotiations have yet to be completed. 15 So, it's difficult to compare apples to 16 oranges because in Gwich'in and Sahtu, claims have been 17 finalized, all right. So in terms for right now, what 18 we're saying is, the recommendations should go, should be 19 advisory in nature, and should go into the background 20 report because we have yet to finalize a land-claim 21 agreement. 22 So, that isn't to say that those 23 recommendations, after negotiations are completed, don't 24 come back into the Final Plan, they could very -- that 25 could very well happen. But for an Interim Plan, what

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1 we're recommending and suggesting is that they go into a 2 Background Report so that they're not forgotten. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: Oh, my name is 7 Carolyn Laude. 8 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: So, basically, you 9 kind of see this -- this stage, March 31st plus or minus 10 a few days, a few weeks, you see this as a Interim Plan, 11 until the Final Agreement is done. 12 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: Yes. 13 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Okay. Okay. And 14 the second question -- I -- it's something I guess I was 15 kind of struggling with when I first read the GNWT 16 submission and then also saw the presentation today, and 17 it gets to some of the previous questions that were 18 raised. I wasn't sure if I heard the answer correctly, 19 so I'll try and rephrase it a little bit and be a little 20 bit more clear. 21 So basically I kind of found that there is 22 quite a bit of discrepancy between the actual submission 23 that the GNWT submitted to the Land -- Land Use Planning 24 Committee and what was given today in front of the 25 communities.

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1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah? 2 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: The -- the 3 presentation that was given today, it was a broad 4 overview. And I know that for all -- like, we don't have 5 time to go through every sentence and every concern. And 6 I got the sense that the GNWT was really trying to find 7 good points in the plan and identify its compatibility 8 with existing processes, just that they're working on 9 trying to make this a go, and that the only statement in 10 the presentation that identified some issues is that some 11 work needs to be done. 12 But this submission, again, going back to 13 some of the previous questions, it identifies a series of 14 -- of statements that need to be removed or changed in 15 the plan. I don't think it's clear to the people sitting 16 here what those are. 17 So, for example, the GNW -- GNWT 18 identified protection of significant traditional land use 19 and occupancy sites as something that still needs to be 20 negotiated. They identified conditional requirement 21 number 4, consultation, something to be negotiated and 22 removed. 23 They identified plant gathering areas, 24 compensation on that, as something that needs additional 25 policy or amendment to legislation.

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1 They identified existing rights, 2 dispositions, authorizations and activities as something 3 that needs additional policy and -- or amendments to 4 legislation, and it should be removed. 5 That minor infrastructure is something 6 that needs -- needs to be removed. That additional 7 policy or amendment -- amendments to legislation needs to 8 be changed. 9 They also identified that access, having 10 access planning studies, routing studies, the -- avoiding 11 traditional land use and occupancy and new access 12 corridors as something that needs to be negotiated and 13 needs to be removed. 14 That water monitoring and management 15 related to CCME drinking water -- CCME drinking water 16 quality guidelines needs amendment to policy or -- 17 additional policy or amendment to legislation, that needs 18 to be removed. 19 That commercial fishing -- that commercial 20 fishing will only be permitted on Great -- on Great Slave 21 Lake with approval of the First Nation; that that's 22 something that needs to be negotiated and needs to be 23 removed. 24 That the conditional requirement number 25 15, water monitoring and management, that the CCME

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1 aquatic guidelines needs partial changes and should be 2 removed. 3 That the water monitoring related to a 4 hydroelectric development is something that needs to be 5 negotiated and should be removed. 6 That the mining reclamation planning and 7 security needs to be removed because additional policy or 8 amendments to legislation needs to happen. 9 That re-vegetation, amendment to the 10 policy -- additional policy amendment to legislation 11 needs to happen. 12 That timber recovery needs to be removed 13 because of amendments to policy and additional 14 legislation. 15 Prevention measures of salvaging the 16 logging. The game outfitters, fishing lodges, digital 17 pre-imposed operating, cumulative effects management. 18 Significant features and seasonal restrictions, community 19 infrastructure, civil cultural practices, sport fishing, 20 cumulative effects research related to wildlife, economic 21 development strategy, these are all things that are 22 something that -- that's listed in the submission that 23 needs to be negotiated or that new policy or amendments 24 to legislation need to happen. 25 For me, reading this as a -- as a citizen

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1 it was -- it was a shock, given the GNWT's role in the 2 Dehcho land use plan to date. This -- this came as a 3 surprise to me as a -- as a, you know, common citizen, 4 not -- not on behalf of CPAWS, but just that there be so 5 many things that are a concern. 6 This is the guts of the plan, this is -- 7 this is Appendix 3, this is what the Land Use Planning 8 Committee is really going to use when they review permits 9 and applications. And this is the eleventh hour, this is 10 the last six/seven (6/7) weeks. 11 And I -- I remember sitting here last year 12 and seeing a lot of faces and the only thing the GNWT had 13 to say was related to forestry. 14 So my question on -- on this issue is how 15 and why were these identified for negotiations or 16 additional policy or amendments to legislation. 17 I think -- I think this is -- this is 18 answered -- tried -- there was an attempt to answer this 19 before the break, but I wasn't really sure on the answer. 20 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: Jennifer, can we 21 answer this is in two (2) parts for you -- 22 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Yeah. 23 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: -- and hopefully 24 it'll bring some better clarity for everybody in the 25 room.

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1 I think when I responded to your first 2 question I attempted to start that road of clarity about 3 the difference of comparing apples to oranges, and the 4 fact that this indeed is an interim plan, that really has 5 to stay within existing legislation until after a final 6 agreement has been completed. 7 There are a number of subjects that yet -- 8 that remain to be negotiated that have not been 9 negotiated at this point. 10 Now some of those items may -- are in that 11 list that you've sort of identified, and that's why the 12 GNWT has included them as part of the submission. 13 Again, it's not like they are being taken 14 off the table completely, what we're saying is we need to 15 complete the other process in order for them to be folded 16 into the Dehcho land use plan, a final plan that will 17 move forward after the final agreement, and there is 18 enabling legislation. 19 Currently what'll happen is with an 20 interim plan there is no enabling legislation similar to 21 the Gwich'in and the Sahtu, who had finalized land 22 claims. So there's some very big differences between the 23 two (2), and I'll let Jane kind of cover off on some of 24 the other points. I hope that helps. 25 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Yeah.

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1 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: Just to pick up from 2 that. So the notion of negotiation, that's an ongoing 3 process, but other ongoing processes, as you're aware, 4 are things like the Protected Area Strategy which has a 5 placement in place. 6 Things like the Forest Management Act, the 7 Wildlife Act, all of those existing legislation that 8 people have, that the -- the committee has done a good 9 job of recognizing in there. It's just that there are 10 limitations there, and there's processes in place, so 11 nothing that can be said in the Act now -- or sorry, I'm 12 sorry, in the plan now, we want to make sure that -- that 13 that's all working together as opposed to putting 14 limitations on one (1) or the other systems that's in 15 place. 16 So it's not as though, as I've said 17 before, the intent of what's in those is not being 18 recognized, it is. And so that's why we want to make 19 sure that when the GNWT approves the final draft land use 20 plan, that everybody can do what they have to do to make 21 sure that the objective intended in that particular term 22 is upheld. 23 So -- so the remove was not a -- the 24 remove was just a big -- bigger flag than it had been in 25 the past, but the flags were there in the past as well.

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1 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Okay. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there. Adrian 3 Boyd...? 4 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: Mr. Chairman, thank 5 you. This isn't really a question, I guess it's -- it's 6 more information for the participants and delegates here. 7 Back in the beginning, a number of years 8 ago, I was Federal Government Lead with Indian Affairs, 9 advising the Chief Federal Negotiator on the land use 10 planning section of the IMA. 11 I sat across the table from the Dehcho 12 First Nations, GWT, we negotiated the provisions of the 13 Interim Measures Agreement, we negotiated the guidelines 14 for the Interim Measures Agreement, the guideline -- the 15 IMA was approved. 16 Part of that discussion included what was 17 called a Course Land Use Planning Project, that was the 18 land withdrawals. The interim plan that's being referred 19 to here, I mean there's no reference to an interim plan 20 in the IMA, but the course planning project was the land 21 withdrawals. 22 The committee itself, looking at its 23 structure, because we recognize that the plan does have 24 to fit into a final agreement and does have to fit into 25 future legislation, whatever that may be, to -- so to

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1 assist us, we accepted what is laid out under the 2 Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, in terms of 3 what other boards do. 4 We -- we recognize as well, that the 5 intent always was that the plan would be binding. This 6 is why the IMA talks about the Minister giving binding 7 policy direction to the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water 8 Board. 9 This is why the Interim Measures Agreement 10 talks about the need to revise or consider new land 11 withdrawals to help implement the plan, because we 12 recognize that legislation isn't in place to allow the 13 plan to prohibit land use, how -- so we do this through 14 the land withdrawals. 15 The discussions that you're offering here 16 and the arguments that I'm hearing today are the 17 discussions we had five (5) years ago with, you know, 18 with people that are sitting around the table here today. 19 And it's, like Jennifer had pointed out, like a year ago 20 we had a discussion here about mandate with -- with 21 Indian Affairs, and we had the same discussion a year ago 22 that we're having today. 23 And I mean, that's just my thoughts. And 24 if GNWT wants to respond to that, that's fine, thanks. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Adrian.

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1 MS. CAROLYN LAUDE: Adrian, I'll just go 2 back to the couple of points that you've raised, and I 3 think they're good points. And it comes back to that 4 whole notion of I guess understanding, and 5 interpretations. 6 Your understanding at the time when you 7 were working on this is that -- and you referenced the 8 fact that it would provide binding policy direction. 9 When I go back to the IMA and I look at 10 Section 11, and it talks about what the Minister of DIAND 11 may do, they may provide written policy. 12 The same thing with respect to the -- the 13 back end of the appendix, when you talk about legally 14 binding direction. I mean, Appendix 2 of the IMA states 15 very clearly, the parties share the objective that upon 16 approval of a Dehcho final agreement, the approved plan 17 will be a land management tool that provides legally 18 binding direction and guidance. 19 And I -- I don't think any of us are going 20 to disagree with that statement. We're going to get 21 there, but as part of this process we're working towards 22 that, we're not there yet. 23 I mean even the comments that are being 24 collected and have been collected since yesterday, the 25 committee itself will be folding all of these items into

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1 revising the plan, based on the feedback that you receive 2 from this regional forum. 3 And the GNWT is very clear about wanting 4 to work with the parties on a path forward, 5 collaboratively. I don't think we're -- we're standing 6 here today and saying that it's an impossibility. 7 In fact, we respect the amount of work 8 that has gone into this plan by the committee, and we're 9 willing to sit with you through this process and to 10 continue working towards a plan that can be approved in 11 the future. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Adrian...? 13 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: That's -- thank you, 14 Mr. Chairman. I think that's very positive. 15 As you know, we're -- we have a fairly 16 short -- small window at present, we don't have funding, 17 so we are pressed for time, is there -- are you able -- 18 and I guess this is a question for Tom. 19 Would you be willing to arrange a meeting 20 with the committee and the Deputy Minister, so we can 21 discuss some of these important issues, so that we can 22 move forward on this sooner than later, like an early 23 March meeting would be good for the committee? 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Tom...? 25 MR. TOM BEAULIEU: Yes, that -- that is

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1 our intention, GNWT intends to propose a meeting with 2 Canada and DCFN, and the Dehcho Land Use Committee. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thanks. Tim, Tim 4 Lennie...? 5 MR. TIM LENNIE: Yeah, just good 6 afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, Elders, distinguished 7 guests. Thank you. 8 I do have a question, just to hear the 9 comments of the leaders. My name is Tim Lennie, I've 10 been originally appointed in 2001 when the -- the board 11 started, and I was quite fortunate to -- to work with 12 some hard working people here at the committee level, and 13 they've done an excellent job of what was required of 14 them. 15 And one (1) of the questions I've always 16 had in regards to being a Board Member, and a lot of 17 times I give a personal opinion, or -- or a thought or I 18 have a question. And this is just a -- a question like a 19 regular member would ask. 20 As a former leader of the Pehdzeh Ki First 21 Nations, and been able to have the mandate to work on a 22 land use plan. And that is one (1) of the mandates of -- 23 of the leadership of the Dehcho with this land use plan. 24 And I -- I hear since the -- the 25 Government of the Northwest Territories wants to, correct

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1 me if I'm wrong, is to delay in submitting this -- this 2 plan for another year. And the chief of the day, Mr. 3 Gabe Hardisty of Pehdzeh Ki First Nations, have also 4 asked that there be some delay before submitting this 5 plan, so we may further inform our -- our membership and 6 at the same time, kind of get some indication of whether 7 the support is there for this plan or not, at the 8 community level. 9 And as Adrian has just mentioned also, is 10 that this committee is here -- just here for this year. 11 Now until further funding is identified or acquired by 12 the committee we will continue in this work, but we have 13 no indication whether we're going to be further funded, 14 since we have a new minority government in place. 15 But on behalf of the -- the Dehcho 16 communities, a special -- well, all the communities, 17 whether we're small or large, we're all the same people, 18 we need to acquire some form of financial capacity at the 19 community level, also human capacity. And that's one (1) 20 of -- always been one (1) of my concerns, is that the 21 work needs to get done at the community level. 22 And I know at this level here, at a 23 regional level, we've done a lot of consultations at a 24 regional level, that had community meetings and so on. 25 But I know there are specifics, in depth

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1 information that the members need to work on, and before 2 finalizing this agreement. So we'll be all at a same 3 playing level field to understand what -- what this plan 4 is all about. 5 So what I would like to ask the GNWT is to 6 -- would I guess in some way support the committee and 7 the communities that receiving some financial resources, 8 so we may, like yourselves, you know, review this 9 document with our people, which is very technical. 10 And us bush -- bush people here, bush 11 lawyers here, you know, we have a little hard time 12 understanding, but we have well-educated moolah chaps 13 like this guy to explain what's happening and what the 14 wording is, I think we'll come to a better understanding. 15 But what my thoughts are is that all the 16 communities should be able to review, analyse, and you 17 know, trying to finalize their own land use plan at the 18 community level, and -- and that's where I see the 19 problem today. Mahsi. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Tim. 21 Again, the floor is open. Is there any further 22 questions, Stan Sanguez, Chief, Jean Marie River. 23 CHIEF STAN SANGUEZ: Thank you. Chief 24 Stan Sanguez from Jean Marie. 25 I don't know where the GNWT really come

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1 from really, because they are claiming groups in the 2 Northwest Territories that are having problems with the 3 Territorial Council to really accept and implement a 4 self-government in 5 -- in their agreements. 6 And let alone when we tried to -- to get 7 Mr. Kakfwi, our Premier back then, to try to recognize 8 the Treaty of the Northwest Territories, and the GNWT 9 still haven't addressed that. 10 The other issue is when it comes to the 11 elections of the -- of the Territorial Council I -- I 12 recall the -- the Premier wanting to -- to work with the 13 communities and the regions in the Northwest Territories, 14 especially the small communities that need more than 15 anything than the larger centres. 16 And when you allude to the -- the 17 legislations and the policies of the day, and -- and 18 we're going to the eleventh hour, like Jennifer said. 19 And all of a sudden you had that one (1) year to -- to do 20 that work, and -- and to have that covered. And all of a 21 sudden, well I don't feel real comfortable with the 22 Territorial Government really discussing our plans, 23 because this land use planning is basically our plans 24 and the communities plans. 25 The only way that I see Territorial

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1 Government really relating to our plans is with the 2 Municipals that -- that are there. The present 3 structures that are there. 4 Even our community never accepted any 5 Charter Act of the GNWT, because we still don't accept 6 them. But at the same time, having -- hearing the -- the 7 submission, I haven't seen it, but to me it's not -- 8 you're not clear here. Because if I understand that when 9 the GNWT had made statements during their elections that 10 they will do this, how these policies and these -- and 11 these legislations would change to these whole 12 discussions here. 13 But at the same time, I see GNWT dragging 14 their process with ours. And I don't think that I have 15 to really, you know, accept what is it that you -- you 16 really want, because this plan is ours, it belongs to the 17 communities. 18 The program and services that -- that you 19 talk about, like forestry; our community of Jean Marie, 20 we're working on forestry and working with the Deputy 21 Minister, Bob Bailey. 22 And I asked that guy one (1) question, I 23 said what does GNWT have in the Forestry Act? Well, 24 sorry, Stan, we don't have none. We have a template that 25 communities could develop. We're developing that for the

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1 work that we're going to be doing, because your 2 legislation to me, would be voided, because the Court 3 cases that are coming across Canada about consultation. 4 You couldn't even change the Wildlife Act without really 5 consulting the whole Northwest Territories, same thing 6 with the forestry and other things. 7 And I'm saying to you, that I don't think 8 you have any authorities in the Dehcho land use planning, 9 other than the municipal boundaries that you, GNWT, 10 created. The roads, the highways. And then having -- 11 there's negotiation that are -- that are still going to 12 be going on. 13 My negotiations is with Canada on this 14 land use planning. You approved that the (3) agreements 15 in Fort Simpson, I remember that. Clearly, you indicated 16 that you will go along with the First Nations in Canada, 17 through this land use planning. And still, we're letting 18 you still talk at this table. 19 But whatever happens in our communities, 20 is that we're working with GNWT on those. But the 21 overall picture of this land use planning of course is to 22 have to be ours. 23 And that the policies and legislations 24 that GNWT has, has to change now, because they promised 25 that in the election. My community still suffers because

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1 of those policies and legislation that GNWT still run on. 2 I mean, they go from standing committee to standing 3 committee and GNWT has a pile of books probably on the 4 shelf, that consulted everybody up and down the Mackenzie 5 Valley, still those -- those policies and the legislation 6 haven't changed. 7 And of course if you're going to have the 8 extension that you want, then I hope you pay for that. 9 And we'll make you pay for that, because I thought we did 10 good with the Federal Government on side, but you at the 11 table, as GNWT, are not. 12 So I hope you go home and tell them that 13 we need the funding, because our submission says we want 14 an extension on this land use planning, because our 15 people had said from the beginning that we'll never 16 borrow any money on the negotiations that's happening. 17 And I don't think my kids or their kids are going to end 18 up paying for that, because of somebody else's dragging 19 their feet, is the GNWT. 20 Then if the -- it was Adrian said that the 21 sooner the better that your party meets with our planning 22 committee and our negotiators, because our negotiators 23 are sitting in the back trying to figure out what is the 24 best route for this land use planning to take place and 25 pass and approve.

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1 With having GNWT doing that, and I don't 2 think it's a great help, because we always did our work 3 with our harvesters, our elders, everybody. There's a 4 little piece of it we still need to talk about in our 5 community, but that's not big. Then I think our land use 6 planning in our part of our community will probably be 7 passed. 8 And that's where I need to take that task 9 from the GNWT to get on track right away, because I want 10 to sit back next year and maybe sign us off and not wait, 11 because our communities are funded to do our TK studies. 12 Our protected area strategy program, that piece of 13 legislation is a good one (1), and we're going to be 14 using that. And some communities had already did that. 15 Already we have our work cut out, but 16 still we need GNWT to do the work yesterday, because I 17 need to tell the GNWT that this land use planning is 18 ours. The only authorities that I see that you have is 19 probably on forestry, but there's nothing there. The 20 program that services the community's water, sewer, 21 that's where you have authority. 22 And that's why we're still having problems 23 with -- even like Chief Roy Fabian was saying, even going 24 to GNWT for a land use permit. And that's where I want 25 to leave this at, because there are closing comments that

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1 could be made, because I wanted to listen to the other 2 companies that -- that are here, that we'd have to talk 3 to anyway, because having -- hear some disturbing 4 submissions to the committee, that I don't really like 5 already, other than the GNWT. 6 Thank you. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chief. 8 There are further comments, Kelly Pennycook, number 3? 9 MR. KELLY PENNYCOOK: After going through 10 you guys's submission, there's very little if no 11 rationale, for your deletions or your recommendations. I 12 was wondering if the GNWT would be willing to reference 13 the recommendations and changes to specific policy and 14 legislation that you guys mentioned? 15 16 (BRIEF PAUSE) 17 18 MR. TOM BEAULIEU: I think that should be 19 left up to a meeting between Canada and GNWT and Dehcho 20 Land Use Committee, I don't think this is the forum to be 21 able to go through all the details and the specifics of - 22 - of some of those concerns. 23 MR. KELLY PENNYCOOK: Yeah, I agree this 24 is ain't the place to go through it, but would you bring 25 it back to the GNWT and be willing to provide them in

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1 writing at a later date to the land use planning? 2 MR. TOM BEAULIEU: Yeah, I -- I would say 3 that we could probably provide more detail in our 4 submissions, be more specific in the response back to the 5 land use plan to the Land Use Planning Committee. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Microphone -- okay. If 7 you have any further comments? Further comments, anyone 8 even from the back here wanted to comment? 9 Okay, well that -- we want to thank you 10 for your presentation. Again, thanks, Tom, and your 11 technician. Let's give them a round of applause there. 12 Okay, that we can move on, we'd like to 13 bring up the Department of Indian Affairs, DIAND. Who 14 would be the lead, is that you, Dave? Okay, Dave, and 15 your crew, up to microphone number 17 please? 16 And again, after the presentation we'll 17 open the floor for some brief questions and some 18 statements. 19 20 (BRIEF PAUSE) 21 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, are we ready to 23 rock? Ready to -- 24 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Ready. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Microphone

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1 number 17 please. 2 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: It's working -- 3 it's working now. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: You bet. 5 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: But I'm going to 6 hold you to your -- your comment earlier about some brief 7 questions at the end of this. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 9 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Thank you. I'm 10 David Livingstone, I'm the Director of Renewable 11 Resources and Environment with DIAND in Yellowknife, and 12 I have with me Greg Yeoman, he works in the Environment 13 and Conservation Division, and Greg was here last year, 14 he was wearing a different hat, but I think some people 15 will recognize him, I'm not sure he's entirely 16 comfortable with the new hat he's wearing, but we'll test 17 it out today. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 19 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: And on my right I 20 have Arthur Boutilier, he's well known to the committee 21 and -- and to many of the people involved in land use 22 planning in the NWT and Nunavut. I think he's well 23 respected by all of us for his expertise in that area. 24 Before I get started on the actual 25 presentation I just wanted to acknowledge the -- the

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1 hospitality and the welcome that we've received by Chief 2 Fabian and his -- and his folks. We particularly want to 3 thank him for the hospitality last night, the feast and 4 the drum dance. 5 And I want to make a comment. I don't -- 6 I don't know if -- there were a couple -- couple drum 7 dancers last night that were absolutely extraordinary, 8 and they took drum dancing to the -- well, there were 9 some drummers too that were -- were really quite 10 exceptional. But -- but I've got to hand it to -- to a 11 couple of the dancers, they were -- they took drum 12 dancing to a whole new level. 13 And I've seen -- I've seen a lot of drum 14 dancing in the twenty (20) years or so that I've been in 15 the NWT, and I guess I just -- I reflected on that a 16 little bit and I thought, you know, that's -- that's 17 really interesting, that was one (1) of -- I think it's 18 one (1) of the strengths of Dene culture, to -- to 19 protect the core culture, but to -- to bring into that 20 culture the -- the aspects of other cultures that -- that 21 fit. 22 And I thought that -- that those two (2) 23 guys dancing last night demonstrated that. And of course 24 the drummers were exceptional. I just want to be clear. 25 Okay, so let's get on with it. This is a

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1 -- just a quick outline of the presentation that we'll go 2 through, it should take ten (10) or fifteen (15) minutes 3 and then we'll be open to some brief questions. 4 We want to talk just over the 5 introduction, a bit of a background, how we arrived at 6 the -- the comments that we've put into our -- our 7 intervention, and outline some of the key issues and 8 recommendations that we have for the committee and then 9 touch briefly on some of the others that are more 10 detailed comments, and outline some of the next steps 11 that we see happening. 12 First of all, I just want to emphasize 13 that -- that DIAND fully recognizes and appreciates the 14 excellent work that the committee has undertaken thus 15 far. And sitting in -- in this meeting for the last two 16 (2) days, I have a better appreciation of the challenges 17 that the committee has faced in developing this plan, and 18 the challenges that it faces in bringing this plan to its 19 final forum. 20 It's not an easy task. We've heard 21 comments from a number of different folks, that conflict. 22 And the committee somehow has to bring those -- those 23 conflicting ideas together and develop a document that 24 everyone can live with. And that is -- that is no easy 25 task.

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1 And our comments are -- are intended to 2 assist the committee, we -- we've tried to be frank, 3 we've tried to be open, we've tried to -- to be clear 4 about the -- the challenges we see, but we also want to 5 assure people that we are fully committed to working with 6 the committee, to getting a plan that everyone can live 7 with, that everyone will support and that everyone will 8 feel good about. We clearly need that. 9 If there's one (1) message that we heard 10 today, it's -- it's the need for clarity. It's the need 11 to -- to develop a picture that everyone understands and 12 that everyone can work within, in the Dehcho. 13 We really, really do want to be able to 14 recommend that plan to the Minister for his 15 consideration. Unfortunately, the -- the plan that -- 16 the draft plan that we have now is -- is one (1) that -- 17 that we couldn't recommend for favourable consideration, 18 and I'll explain why. 19 We -- we undertook quite a comprehensive 20 review, we had an interdepartmental working group, a 21 number of folks from -- from DIAND in Yellowknife, and -- 22 and elsewhere in the NWT and -- and in Ottawa, assisting 23 us developing our comments, and -- and we -- we tried to 24 focus it in -- in three (3) main areas. 25 Legislative issues, integration of the

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1 plan with the existing policies, programs, strategies, 2 processes, including the Protected Area Strategy, for 3 example, cumulative effects assessment and management, 4 and all of those initiatives. And then we -- we 5 considered the plan in the context of professional land 6 use planning principles and practices. 7 So as -- as folks from the GNWT and others 8 earlier today have noted, this plan, pending conclusion 9 of negotiations at the main table, is an interim plan, 10 and it needs to be implemented within current legislation 11 and regulations. We're not in a position to amend 12 legislation and regulations until the main table has 13 concluded. So the plan needs to conform with the 14 existing structure. 15 We've -- we recognize that there's some -- 16 there's a bit of an element of surprise I think, amongst 17 some folks, the nature of our comments. We've heard 18 people say, well, you know, you've got some significant 19 legal issues here, why didn't you bring them up earlier? 20 And all I can say on that is that we have brought up 21 concerns earlier, related to these things. 22 The -- the change from five (5) conformity 23 requirements to twenty-seven (27) focussed our attention 24 a little bit, and -- and we undertook a preliminary legal 25 review, just -- just to make sure that -- that the

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1 conformity requirements did fit within current 2 legislation. 3 And that preliminary legal review has 4 indicated that there are some challenges remaining, to 5 make sure that -- that in fact we can do what we want to 6 do within the current framework. 7 This plan is a -- a significant reworking 8 of the previous version. And -- and that again has -- 9 has required us to take a closer look at it, and -- and 10 we've -- well, our comments are reflected in the 11 documents. 12 Now there are a number of legal concerns 13 that -- that we have, and again I'd refer people to the 14 detailed presentation, or intervention if you'd like, 15 that we've provided. But there are conformity 16 requirements that exceed, in our view, legislative 17 authorities. Now, mandatory use of TK policies and 18 protocols implies in some cases a veto by communities 19 that isn't reflected in legislation. 20 Traditional land use and occupancy, I 21 certainly understand it and support the principle. But 22 the fact is that that development will, almost in every 23 circumstance, have some effect on traditional land use 24 and occupancy. There isn't an industrial development 25 anywhere that hasn't had some environmental effect and

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1 some social effect. 2 Some positive, some negative. But those 3 will all affect traditional land use and occupancy, so we 4 need to -- to do some work in that area. 5 Consultation requirements, the Supreme 6 Court in the Haida/Taku decision, laid out its 7 expectations of consultation, obligations of the Crown, 8 and as well addressed the consultation obligations of 9 industry. 10 And some of the elements in this plan 11 exceed what the Supreme Court has said industry is 12 responsible for. So we need to work on that. 13 We also have some concerns, lingering 14 concerns about the size and extent of the conservation 15 zones and the special management zones, and we have some 16 concerns remaining about the management of cumulative 17 effects. 18 I've already touched on this, so I'll just 19 skip through it. 20 What we're recommending is that the 21 committee undertake a comprehensive legal analysis of the 22 plan itself. We understand that that hasn't been done, 23 and we think it's really important that it be done. We 24 think it's really important that the committee have its 25 own legal analysis. I wouldn't recommend that you rely

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1 on ours, I wouldn't recommend that you rely on anyone 2 else's, you need your own. 3 Just as we -- in -- in many environmental 4 assessments, run into differences of opinion among 5 scientific experts, and don't rely on any one (1) expert. 6 I think the same is true for legal advice. And once you 7 have that legal advice, then we can compare notes on an 8 equal playing field. 9 We'd also recommend that all the other 10 regulatory authorities affected by this plan do the same 11 thing, and I don't believe that -- that many of them, if 12 any of them, have done that. So we need more time and 13 more work in that area. 14 We would offer that legal counsel working 15 for -- for the Federal Government would meet with legal 16 counsel working for the Committee and -- and other non- 17 Government-regulatory authorities, and compare notes. 18 Legal counsel provide advice. It's not 19 binding advice, necessarily, and there are always ways to 20 address the problems, if we work together, to achieve the 21 intent through different mechanisms. And that's -- 22 that's what we need to do. But you need your own legal 23 advice to get us to that point. 24 Conservation Zones, Special Management 25 Zones, and the Protected Area Strategy Zones: Well, I

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1 think most people are aware that DIAND has been a strong 2 supporter of the protected-area strategy since -- since 3 before its inception in -- in some ways. 4 We have been given full Government support 5 to date on implementing the intent of the Protected Area 6 Strategy, and we support the identification of 7 conservation areas throughout the NWT. 8 We -- we also acknowledge that the Zone 6 9 Area, the Nahanni Watershed, Greater Nahanni Watershed, 10 will be best dealt with through the National Park 11 Expansion process, but, we have a -- a bit of a 12 challenge. 13 The -- the conservation zones that have 14 been identified in the Plan to date, are considerably 15 larger in extent than the conservation zones that were 16 identified in the Interim Land Withdrawal. 17 Now, we've obviously got some disagreement 18 there, but like it or not, Canada's view at that time was 19 that while there might be some amendments to those 20 Interim Land Withdrawals for conservation purposes, we 21 didn't see that there were going to be significant, huge 22 areas added. 23 And that's -- that's essentially where we 24 are now. We've got some -- we've got a bit of a -- a 25 disconnect between what was intended when the Interim

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1 Land Withdrawals were -- were first undertaken, and the 2 current Proposal in front of us. And we need to -- to 3 bridge that gap. 4 So, here are some of our suggestions, our 5 recommendations: That they be reduced in size to better 6 conform with the Interim Land Withdrawals. And I -- I 7 heard very clearly, a number of the communities say, 8 we're not interested in smaller areas, in fact we're 9 interested in larger areas being protected. And we also 10 heard some communities saying, you've protected too much. 11 Well, we -- we have the unenviable task of 12 recommending to the Committee that -- that perhaps you've 13 protected too much, and -- and you need to -- to re- 14 examine that. 15 In doing that, you need to look at the 16 location of the existing Interim Land Withdrawals, the -- 17 and I point out that it's not yet ratified but the 18 recently-negotiated land withdrawals are on Pehdzeh Ki 19 Deh, Pehdzeh Ki, rather, submissions earlier by Chief 20 Deneron, significant variation in the conservation zones 21 and special management zones around communities, some 22 want more, some want less. 23 I understand that that's a difficult -- 24 difficult challenge, but some consideration I think that 25 the Committee needs to -- to follow up further, is trying

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1 to -- to make the -- the picture a little more uniform, 2 if at all possible. 3 And I think the Committee needs to pay 4 particular attention to those areas with known or highly 5 likely significant mineral and hydrocarbon potential. 6 There's a sense that -- that some of the conservation 7 zones include areas with significant potential and that 8 may not be in the -- the long-term interest of the 9 Dehcho. 10 Special Management Zones, it occurs to us 11 that -- that some of the, given the restrictions in some 12 of the Special Management Zones, they are in effect not 13 very dissimilar from Conservation Zones. 14 So I think -- I think you need to -- to 15 think a little more carefully about how to -- what 16 activities in those Special Management Zones you really 17 do need to restrict. 18 We would suggest, and this is 19 respectfully, given all the work and -- and time and 20 effort that you've already put into this, that you think 21 a little bit more about protecting the values rather than 22 prohibiting the activities. 23 And I'll give you a bit of an example. 24 I've worked with the Community of Deline for the past 25 three (3) years, on developing a management plan for the

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1 Great Bear Lake Watershed. 2 It includes protected areas, but the 3 community preferred to take the view that -- that it 4 needed to focus on the values that it wanted protected, 5 rather than prohibiting industrial activities. 6 So for example, one of the values that is 7 central to the Great Bear Lake Management Plan, is the 8 protection of the water quality of Great Bear Lake. So 9 rather than prohibiting mineral development around the 10 Lake, what the community felt more comfortable with was - 11 - was setting criteria to ensure that the Lake water 12 quality would be unaffected no matter what the 13 development was. 14 So for mine effluent, for example, the 15 community felt comfortable in saying: If a mine 16 proceeds, the main thing is to ensure that the effluent 17 from the mine, when it reaches Great Bear Lake, is at 18 background levels. 19 So, mining company, you go figure out how 20 to do that, and if you can do it, great, and if you can't 21 do it, well, go back and think some more. But the -- the 22 effect was not to prohibit mining, it was to constrain 23 the activities so that the values -- the ecosystem 24 values, were protected. 25 And there may be some flexibility in the

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1 overall size of the Special Management Zones that the 2 Committee can -- can work on so that the -- the size, the 3 quantum is -- is reduced somewhat. 4 Managing Cumulative Effects, another 5 significant challenge, not just in the Dehcho, but 6 throughout the NWT. Cumulative Effects Framework 7 recognizes the need to develop thresholds to understand 8 better the resilience and carrying capacity of the 9 ecosystem. 10 And, and DIAND of course shares that -- 11 that concern, and we're working internally and with 12 Environment Canada and other parties, to try and -- and 13 get a better handle on what this concept of resilience 14 means and what carrying -- appropriate carrying capacity 15 numbers might be, and -- and what the appropriate 16 thresholds could be for different kinds of activities. 17 So we -- we fully appreciate the work that 18 the Committee has done, but don't think, we're not 19 comfortable yet with the results. So our recommendation 20 is, to put it simply: Move this from a -- a conformity 21 requirement to a recommendation; that way we can work on 22 this collectively but it doesn't become a no-go -- go-no- 23 go decision that -- that may be based on -- on inaccurate 24 or incorrect numbers. 25 Now it -- it doesn't mean that -- that

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1 necessarily we disagree with those numbers, we're just 2 not comfortable that those numbers are the right ones. 3 Even the -- the best available knowledge isn't 4 necessarily correct, and we've all been there before. 5 So we need to proceed carefully down this 6 road and we need to -- to enable flexibility as we go. 7 And a final comment in that area is that the -- the 8 process laid out in the Plan is pretty complex, it lays a 9 -- a fairly heavy burden on the regulatory authorities as 10 it stands and I -- I think that it would be in 11 everybody's interest to have a clearer, simpler process. 12 Yeah. So I've covered this already. 13 These are -- these last comments are detailed comments, 14 just examples of -- of some of the -- the smaller issues 15 that we've identified. 16 One -- one I might want to spend a little 17 bit of time on is the Mackenzie Valley Pipeline Corridor. 18 The -- the current, as I understand it, the current 19 corridor in the Plan is a one (1) kilometre wide 20 corridor. 21 And we've -- we recognize that -- that in 22 the course of the National Energy Board Review and the 23 Joint Review Panels' Review, that -- that in fact that 24 one (1) kilometre corridor may not be in the right place. 25 It may be that the -- the pipeline should be shifted a

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1 kilometre or two (2) or three (3), in one direction or 2 the other. Again, an example of not being too 3 restrictive too early in the process. 4 So we'd suggest that -- that the Committee 5 consider a wider corridor, it doesn't mean that, of 6 course, the -- the ultimate development would be any 7 larger, any wider, but there'd be flexibility within a 8 wider corridor to finally site the pipeline based on the 9 National Energy Board and GRP recommendations that 10 wouldn't require an amendment to the Plan later. 11 I'm not going to go into these in any 12 level of detail, it's kind of technical and -- and picky. 13 Next Steps. We want to have a plan, we 14 collectively, I think, want to have a plan that we can 15 all recommend to the DIAND Minister for consideration. 16 As folks have said, this -- this may require more time 17 beyond the March 31st deadline, and that addition 18 resources would of course be required to do that. 19 And we've heard the comments and the 20 concerns raised by communities as well as -- as by other 21 parties. So, we're going to work, we will commit to work 22 collaboratively and expeditiously with the Committee to 23 finalize the Plan as soon as possible. 24 We recognize it is going to take more time 25 than, we believe it will take more time than to March

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1 31st, and that we will find the resources necessary to 2 ensure that this -- this Plan is completed in a way that 3 -- that meets the needs of everyone. 4 So if there's -- if there are incremental 5 resources that are required this year, we will undertake 6 to find them, and we will undertake to ensure that the 7 Committee has additional, adequate resources for next 8 year. 9 That's it and if there are any questions, 10 oh, I think maybe there is one (1) more slide, yes. 11 Sorry. 12 I just want to reiterate, just like the -- 13 the drummers last night and the drum dancers, the 14 Committee has done an extraordinary job today. You 15 deserve a lot of congratulations. I don't think that 16 people fully appreciate the work that you've done. And - 17 - and in a forum like this, you're more likely to hear 18 the criticism than you are to hear the -- the support and 19 appreciation. 20 So I want to say that in all sincerity and 21 we really appreciate what you've done. We understand 22 that there's going to be some tough work ahead, in some 23 ways perhaps tougher than -- tough decisions, let's put 24 it that way, ahead, that may be tougher than decisions 25 taken before, because we're getting to the -- the crunch,

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1 the 11th hour and that sometimes requires decisions that 2 are painful. 3 But to get this thing done, those 4 decisions may be necessary. I think we can do it, and in 5 fact I'm confident that we can do it, I think there's 6 good will in this room and elsewhere. And I think 7 everybody agrees that -- that what we're looking for is 8 responsible economic development within a sound 9 environmental management framework. 10 This plan is -- is part, certainly central 11 part of that sound environmental management framework and 12 it will contribute to responsible economic development. 13 And we support that wholeheartedly. 14 And we will do our part to assist the 15 Committee to produce a plan that we're -- that we'll all 16 support, and that we'll all be proud of. So thank you. 17 Mahsi cho. And we will take some brief questions. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. Thanks 19 there, Dave. Good presentation on the issue of drummers 20 and drum dancers, that is something that we live by, it 21 is a pretty serious thing for us, it is almost a 22 religion. 23 And like the Land Use Planning exercise 24 here yesterday, I notice that when we were drumming it 25 was just the Dene that were dancing. I didn't see the

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1 GNWT or the Federal Government jump in and try to help 2 out. So I don't know whether that will continue to be 3 the exercise of Canada. 4 But I think the idea here is to bring in 5 people into this drum dance and have everybody work 6 together, instead of sitting on the sidelines and saying 7 how nice they look. I mean, I think you need to be part 8 of that, and to pull in the same direction. 9 So with that -- 10 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: I will just 11 respond to that. I'm -- I'm... 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: I will respond to that 13 one too. 14 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: White guys can't 15 dance. So...I -- actually I was in Deline a few weeks 16 ago for the Community Ratification of the Great Bear Lake 17 Watershed Management Plan and I -- I drummed and danced 18 at the same time. 19 So I'm -- I'm prepared to take it on 20 again. I was just -- just a little intimidated last 21 night by the -- the expert quality of the -- the dancers. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: We will let you go with 23 this one then. Okay. Rick. Rick Lafferty...? 24 MR. RICHARD RAFFERTY: Thanks. I just 25 have a couple of comments. I'm sure you listened very

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1 closely to all the comments that were made to the GNWT 2 and you could see clearly that there's -- there's issues, 3 and I'll leave it that, between Dehcho First Nations and 4 GNWT. 5 But with respect to your presentation 6 here: Using, what do you call, existing legislation, I 7 recognize that we're agreeing to use existing legislation 8 with a view that in a final agreement that will change. 9 However, you know, if existing legislation 10 was working for us, I think a major part of this whole 11 planning process would not be required. So with respect 12 to the Federal Government and -- and the existing 13 legislation, I think it's important that the Federal 14 Government acknowledge and recognize that it is a 15 fiduciary and that there is Aboriginal self-Government 16 and we are still exercising. 17 And current legislation, my understanding 18 at least of -- of the fiduciary, is that current 19 legislation should be read and interpreted by the 20 fiduciary in favour of the Dehcho First Nations. 21 And I just wanted to put that on the table 22 because there seems to be, you know, this view that 23 Canada is the ultimate authority and, you know, what it 24 says goes. And -- and perhaps that might be the case in 25 some instances, but the responsibility as a fiduciary is

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  1  that it should be interpreting and reading things in the
  2  best interests of the beneficiary, which is the Dehcho
  3  First Nations.
  4                 And the second comment that I'd like to
  5  make is:  You know, the interesting thing about
  6  cumulative effects is that they accumulate.  So -- so to
  7  -- to take a hard line first and then let it off a little
  8  bit later I think, would be the appropriate approach, as
  9  opposed to the alternative, which you appear to be
 10  suggesting is that, we leave it open and see if, you
 11  know, these things accumulate.
 12                 Well, you can't take them back after they
 13  accumulate.  If -- if we're not -- if -- if these were
 14  not agents and pollutants and -- and you know, other
 15  things that -- that cause a lasting effect, they wouldn't
 16  have a cumulative effect.
 17                 So, to suggest to us that we let it all,
 18  you know, let it all happen, a free entry program and
 19  then, you know, if it's not working, if there are things
 20  that are accumulating, then we, you know, tighten the
 21  screws on this, is -- is a backwards approach to me.
 22                 And I will give you an example of that: 
 23  If we were just to say, go for it, and -- and barge in
 24  front of Providence, and -- and Providence Narrows in the
 25  -- the Mills Lake area.  The wash of all those, you know,

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1 thousands of barges going by, loaded and turning in that 2 area, would wipe out the bottom of the food chain, which, 3 you know, has a natural effect of wiping everything out 4 above it, and then coming back up river. It's just as 5 bad even if the barges are empty, because you're pushing 6 a current and the wash of those props will wash that 7 whole other side of the lake out as well. 8 That is not a cumulative effect that I 9 want to wait to see if it causes any -- any damage after 10 the fact. And I just wanted to make those comments. 11 Mahsi cho. 12 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Well, maybe I 13 will respond briefly to both points. I think the Supreme 14 Court is -- has essentially endorsed what -- what you 15 were saying about interpreting legislation when it comes 16 to the impacts on Aboriginal Peoples. 17 The Supreme Court has said quite clearly, 18 consult, accommodate, and then move forward, only when 19 all the information is in, if you move forward at all. 20 So we're getting there. 21 In terms of cumulative effects, I'm not 22 suggesting, and I don't think I'm -- I certainly didn't 23 mean to, that we leave it all wide open. I've -- I've 24 been working on environment assessments for twenty (20) 25 years here in the NWT and I am well aware of the concerns

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1 about the effects of activity on the social and economic 2 well-being of the communities and their cultural well- 3 being, and on the environment. 4 But what I am saying is that let's -- 5 let's use all the tools we have and let's not shoot 6 ourselves in the foot in the process by leaping to a 7 conclusion that -- that may not be the right one. 8 Let's use the environmental assessment 9 process to address issues like the barge traffic. Let's 10 make sure that people are aware of the -- the 11 implications of that barge traffic and -- and do 12 everything they can to mitigate those effects in the 13 first place. 14 And let's track the cumulative effects 15 through a solid-monitoring program, and let's take 16 remedial action if we need to, if the monitoring program 17 shows that things are getting out of hand. 18 But let's not set numbers in place, 19 thresholds that -- that may be the wrong ones. Let's be 20 cautious, let's -- let's do everything we can to minimize 21 the effects, but let's not leap to the conclusion that -- 22 that in fact a single number is going to solve our 23 problems either. 24 You know, sometimes people think, well if 25 you've got a threshold then -- then you can relax your

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1 guard. Well, in fact, that's not the case either. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is there 3 any questions? Heidi Wiebe. 4 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: I have a -- a number of 5 different comments and questions, so I will just take 6 them a few at a time here. 7 First, I would like to commend DIAND for 8 the content of their submission, and the way in which it 9 was done, remembering where we were a year ago at the 10 last Regional Forum, I think the department has come a 11 very long way. 12 And despite the -- the length of the 13 submission, it was thirty-eight (38) pages, the detail 14 that was provided and the way it was written, was very 15 helpful. 16 They said: These are our concerns, and 17 here are various ways that you can address our concerns 18 and it was very productive, pro-active, and I think, 19 gives us guidance that does tell us that we can work 20 through these issues together. So I think your 21 Department needs to be commended for the work you put 22 into that Submission, it was very well done. 23 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Thanks, Heidi, I 24 -- I'll just respond by saying, Hey, we're from DIAND, 25 we're here to help.

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1 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Okay. Now on to the 2 other things. One (1) is just a point of information in 3 your submission and also your presentation, one of the 4 things that raised a flag for your department was the 5 increase in the number of conformative requirements, and 6 this is just a clarification. 7 All but about three (3) of those were 8 already in the last draft of the Plan, but they were 9 actions last time, and it was just flipping definitions 10 and reorganizing the Plan. They were requirements last 11 time, it was just a change in definitions. 12 So, we did not in fact create twenty (20) 13 new terms; they were there. So that's just for 14 information. 15 Size of the Conservation Areas. As you've 16 mentioned, this was raised by DIAND during the last 17 Submission, that again there is an assumption or thinking 18 that we would not go beyond the size and extent that was 19 put forward under the Interim Land Withdrawals. 20 And you've given us again, in your 21 Submission, various ways to address this concern. The 22 problem is that, well, (1) we are fairly consistent with 23 what was in the Interim Land Withdrawals. There's very 24 few places where we differ from it. 25 The different areas where we have

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1 dramatically increased the size of land withdrawals are 2 first, the Nahanni expansion area, which in your 3 submission you have said the department is happy with the 4 fact that that will be decided through the Park Expansion 5 Process. 6 So as far as we're concerned, that means 7 we don't really have to look at that area and that's not 8 a concern for DIAND anymore, which we're very happy to 9 see. 10 The other big expansion area was Pehdzeh 11 Ki Deh, which as you know, is moving through the 12 Protected Area Strategy. And that's why it is there 13 right now, in the size it is, which is also as you say, a 14 process supported very strongly by the Department of 15 Indian Affairs. 16 The same holds true for all of the other 17 large conservation zones within the Plan. Trout Lakes, 18 Sambaa K'e, sorry Zone 5, is also moving through the 19 Protected Area Strategy very rapidly, I might add. And 20 that's -- that's being supported and -- and moving us way 21 along. 22 Last we got an information package from 23 the Protected Area Strategy that Kakisa is moving a large 24 portion, an even larger area of Zone 14 through, that's 25 also our very large conservation zone.

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1 And so how do we, or how does the 2 Department recommend that we reconcile the fact that all 3 of our huge conservation areas are moving through a 4 Federally-sponsored process? 5 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Good question. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Right on. 7 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Yes. I mean, we 8 all recognize that -- that there are different processes 9 underway and -- and the Protected Area Strategy is -- is 10 a significant initiative that -- that is succeeding. I 11 mean, that's -- 12 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Very well. 13 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: -- it was 14 intended to -- very much to develop a network of 15 protected areas in the NWT that -- that first of all, 16 reflected concerns of communities and protect the areas 17 that communities feel are -- are special to them, and 18 second that, that represent a broad sample of the eco- 19 regions in the NWT. 20 All I can say, in -- in answer to your 21 question is, ask the Committee to take another look. If 22 there's anything that the Committee feels it can do, 23 please do that. We would expect that -- that the -- the 24 areas being proposed now under the PAS and -- and so on, 25 the boundaries, are obviously not final boundaries.

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1 The Nahanni -- the Greater Nahanni 2 Watershed is represented by Zone 6, but that may not be 3 the final boundary in the end. So, in the long term, 4 it's likely that the -- the conservation area quantum 5 will be reduced, regardless. But we're asking the 6 Committee to take another look at it. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Further 8 questions? 9 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Okay. Back on to our 10 other favourite subject of cumulative effects. 11 There is concern, obviously, as you've 12 heard from Richard and from other people that, you know, 13 just making it a recommendation makes it too easy to 14 ignore. And so that's obviously a concern for the 15 Committee and we would be looking for, you know, 16 something stronger in that respect. 17 And I guess your -- your last -- one of 18 your last comments there was that we have this current 19 regulatory process under which cumulative effects would 20 be managed, or, and is currently being managed. 21 And I guess I would question how effective 22 that has been to date, given our experience on a -- on a 23 few different cases. Everyone's familiar with the -- 24 what Paramount's been -- been doing in the Cameron Hills, 25 and the environmental assessment on that process.

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1 Now, the Mackenzie Valley Boards held them 2 subject to a cumulative-effects assessment that I believe 3 has -- has been in that process and gone back and forth 4 between Ministers and appeals and letters and that for 5 two (2) to three (3) years now. 6 And if the Land Use Plan and cumulative 7 effects is meant to bring certainty and efficiency to the 8 system, I would ask how, if the current system is taking 9 three (3) years and costing developers and Government 10 hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars in 11 research and reporting, where's the Land Use Plan? 12 We -- the Committee would run the 13 assessments, we have the tools and the capacity to do 14 that now and we can run them on every project in a few 15 hours. How is that not better to give everybody the 16 answers they need up front versus the current system. 17 And I'd like to remind everyone in the 18 audience that the Minister of DIAND accepted one (1) of 19 those thresholds on that Paramount EA back in August of - 20 - of 2005. And I'm not sure of the current status of 21 that application, or whether they've actually got their 22 permits or licenses, but there is a precedent, it has 23 been accepted once, but it took two (2) to three (3) 24 years to get to that point. 25 So if we -- if we can decide on these

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1 things, you know, with the best available information, 2 because that's all we can work with, and we've built a 3 framework in for annual updates and flexibility, how is 4 that not an improvement over the current system? 5 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Well, in theory, 6 it would be. In practice, it might not be. One (1) of 7 the things that we can do is, I mean, you said that if 8 it's a recommendation, it will get ignored. 9 Well, I'm not so sure. I mean, we can -- 10 we can investigate the possibility of providing binding 11 policy direction to the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water 12 Board, to consider these thresholds in its -- in its 13 reviews. 14 You're right. The -- in the Paramount 15 Case, a threshold related to Woodland Caribou was 16 accepted. I'm not going to talk any more about the 17 Paramount Case, because it's tied up in litigation. 18 But that's -- that's maybe a precedent 19 that will stand up, maybe not. But, you know, it -- but 20 you're right. In theory, having thresholds and -- and 21 better knowledge about carrying capacity and -- and being 22 able to accommodate to different situations quickly, 23 could only be positive. 24 But a single number isn't an answer on its 25 own. It's got to be factored in with other

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1 considerations. A single number may be appropriate in 2 one area, it will be inappropriate in another, for either 3 overkill or underkill. 4 So I -- I think we -- we just need to be 5 careful. And I -- I fully agree that I, you know, I 6 think we need to err, if we err one way or the other, on 7 the side of -- of ensuring that threatened species like 8 Woodland Caribou, are protected. But let's -- let's walk 9 through this one carefully. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. Adrian, 11 and then Petr. Okay. 12 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: Positioning at the 13 table is very important if you want to get to the 14 microphone. 15 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just building on 16 -- on the discussion here of cumulative effects and -- 17 and recommendations, we're talking DIAND is suggesting 18 that we take the cumulative effects requirement of the 19 Plan and make it a recommendation. 20 The GNWT is suggesting that we remove all 21 recommendations from the Plan. Is DIAND okay with the 22 concept of recommendations being contained in the Plan? 23 Thank you. 24 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Absolutely. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

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1 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: And maybe I can 2 just elaborate a little bit more on that. When it's -- 3 when it has received the approval of DFN and GNWT and 4 when it's favourably considered by the Minister, we will 5 consider it binding. 6 It's an Interim Plan in a sense that -- 7 that come conclusion of the main table negotiations, it 8 will be reviewed and revised accordingly. But in the 9 meantime, it will have a full force and effect of a plan, 10 and within existing legislation, et cetera. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. Petr 12 Cizek. And then Chief Harry Deneron. Okay. Petr. 13 MR. PETR CIZEK: Thanks for your very 14 constructive Presentation. 15 On the cumulative effects issue, you said 16 that you don't disagree with the numbers, you just don't 17 feel comfortable with them. 18 I was wondering which numbers you're 19 referring to? For example, there's considerable 20 scientific literature out there now, coming from Northern 21 Alberta, saying that when seismic lines and -- and other 22 linear features exceed more than three (3) linear 23 kilometres per square kilometre, which basically means 24 one (1) cutline every three hundred (300) metres, that 25 you're wiping out Woodland Caribou.

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1 Five (5) out of seven (7) of the Woodland 2 Caribou herds in Northern Alberta are on their way to 3 extinction. 4 I was wondering if you'd reviewed those 5 figures that -- that are coming from peer-reviewed 6 scientific publications, coming up from University of 7 Alberta, and whether you're familiar with the fact that 8 when you get into 3-D seismic, you end up with one (1) 9 cutline every three hundred (300) to five hundred (500) 10 metres and that also you don't need to do that anymore, 11 we have the technology with GPS and under canopy GPS, 12 which allows us to cut very, very tiny walking trails 13 that don't require those three (3) metre to five (5) 14 metre cutlines. 15 So, to simplify it, have you reviewed the 16 literature which we presented to you? And what is it 17 that you don't feel comfortable with? 18 I -- I kind of don't feel comfortable with 19 the fact that -- that the southern part of the Dehcho 20 could very well become like Northern Alberta very, very 21 quickly; parts of it already have. 22 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Well, let's -- 23 let's start with the last point first. I don't think 24 anybody wants to see Northern Alberta spread into the 25 Dehcho or the rest of the NWT. It's not Alberta here,

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1 it's the NWT, and it's the Dehcho. 2 And what happens here should reflect the - 3 - the needs and the aspirations and the visions of the 4 People in the Dehcho. So I don't think there's any 5 disagreement there. 6 No, I haven't read the literature. I'm 7 not a biologist, I'm certainly not an expert in 8 cumulative-effects management. I don't disagree with 9 your numbers, I don't agree with your numbers. They're 10 out there, they're numbers, and I'm sure you've done an 11 excellent job of extracting from the existing literature, 12 the -- the most appropriate numbers you see. 13 But just as I wouldn't rely, if I were the 14 committee, on -- on one (1) lawyer's opinion, I'm not 15 sure that we should rely on -- on one (1) expert's 16 advice, as -- as well founded and as -- as respected as 17 your advice is. I think we need to look at this very 18 carefully. 19 I'm -- I'm in no position to comment on 20 whether a one point five (1.5) kilometre threshold or a 21 five (5) kilometre or a three (3) kilometre or whatever, 22 is -- is the appropriate number. But if -- if it isn't, 23 then we've got a problem. If it is, good. But let's 24 approach it carefully. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Harry

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1 Deneron...? Number 20, microphone number 20. 2 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: Thank you, Mr. 3 Chairman. It's been mentioned that I don't support 4 expansion of the Park, not so much that, we're -- we are 5 opposed to expanding the park to the southwest. You can 6 expand all you want to the north, you know, but it seems 7 like part of that side of the park is like the surface of 8 the moon, there's no vegetation, it's very rugged and 9 there's noth -- no land in there. 10 You can expand all you want in there, let 11 those tourists roam around there, but to the south it's 12 very important to us. To the southwest it's very 13 important to us. We know all those places by names, 14 tradition names, and when we talk about that part of the 15 land there, you know that there are other aboriginal 16 groups called Kaska Nation, have the tradition land based 17 right across that park. 18 And Government of Canada tell us that we 19 can't do anything in there without consulting those 20 Kaska. Today that line is right where the -- all the 21 discussion's taking place, and that line is right in the 22 middle, and then last year I was led to believe that we 23 could do -- carry on those things without consulting 24 Kaska, now what happened? I want to know that. 25 And like I said, once -- like I said this

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1 morning, like one (1) time we used to travel like between 2 Trout Lake and Fort Liard on the traditional land, and 3 that was in 1952. You know, ever since then we -- we 4 haven't travelled that -- that trail, and everybody 5 depend on seismic line. So where are you guys coming 6 from, you know. But you know, the reality is that we in 7 Fort Liard, the timber is so thick and heavy there, 8 everybody used the cut line, nobody use the line anymore, 9 that's one (1) of the reasons we probably don't use -- 10 going back to the land much as we do. 11 But I mean, from one (1) thing from 12 somebody that's sitting in the front there, and they 13 said, well change your way again. We've already been 14 through that. In our life, we kill animal, we stretch 15 them and we sell them to Hudson's Bay Company, they train 16 us to do that. 17 Lately animal group tell us, change the 18 way you make your living. How often we going to make 19 changes to every time that something happen, you know, 20 how often we going to make those changes? And I hope 21 these changes that we're talking about, well we'll have 22 to live with it for a while. Thank you. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Harry. 24 David...? 25 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: I -- I can't

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1 answer your question, Harry, about the Kaska, I can look 2 into it for you and -- and get back to you. 3 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: Okay. 4 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: I don't know if 5 anybody else from DIAND has any -- any insight there? 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Roy, could we 7 maybe just keep it brief, because I think we need to go 8 for a break here shortly. So if we can stick to the 9 point and to the plan, and keep it focussed. I know 10 David wants to get up and run, run outside there. Okay. 11 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Run away. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, okay. Roy...? 13 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: I guess the -- for me 14 that sometimes I get the feeling that there's no room for 15 us to really raise the issues we really need to raise. 16 And a lot of times, you know, because we 17 don't want to take the time, we don't get to discuss the 18 issues the way we want to discuss them. And we're rushed 19 along and we're worried about other people's time. And 20 here we are, we're dealing with our lives and our issues 21 that are so important to us, and that we have to struggle 22 with on a day to day basis, but you know, that's not 23 recognized. So I'll do the best that I can to 24 accommodate your request to try to do it as quickly as 25 possible.

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1 I guess for me, some of the -- you know, 2 I've been involved in this Dehcho process right from day 3 one (1), and one (1) of -- you know, like not from day 4 one (1), but I've been quite involved over the years in 5 the way things have been going. 6 And you know, like, I was just watching 7 here for your -- your presentation and I just read, you 8 know, read through your -- your presentation here very 9 quickly. And you know, and just listening to the 10 comments from the other delegates and some of your 11 responses, I -- you know, there is one (1) issue that I - 12 - I want to talk about, and -- and sometimes, you know, 13 it's really difficult for me to -- to listen, you know, 14 and -- and you know, have to -- I have to sit here and -- 15 and take it, and -- and not able to -- to say what I need 16 to say, because of the views of, you know, Indian 17 Affairs, and you know, the biggest issue on the table for 18 us is probably the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management 19 Act. 20 And -- and for me, I talked to your staff, 21 people in your own department that said, yes, you know, 22 the resource -- the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management 23 Act is pro-development. Now that -- you know, people in 24 your own staff will admit that then -- I'm not going to 25 tell you who, in case you want to fire them, so I

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1 wouldn't tell you who it was. 2 But, no, and there's a lot of people that 3 talk about that, and you know -- and you know, and then, 4 you know, I interact with the -- the people in the 5 industry and listen to their comments and -- and stuff 6 like that, and you know, like I don't want to be -- you 7 know, I've got a lot of respect for this gentleman, and - 8 - but when we're out on Cameron Hills and we're looking 9 at this project where they were making snow for a lease 10 where they were going to do drilling and they were 11 building snow. 12 And his opinion was it was overkill, why 13 do we have to go through all this and spend all this 14 money and -- because -- and for me, when I listened, I 15 knew I was listening to a -- you know, an industry, you 16 know, oil industry guy, and you know, I just got to take 17 the comment as it is and not respond to it. 18 But, no, and for me, that's the point that 19 -- that I want to make about this whole process, and -- 20 and you know, and you -- you -- like, and I know that 21 through the negotiations, like, the negotiations, like, 22 the framework agreement that we operated -- we're 23 operating under, and the Interim Measures Agreement were 24 put together before I came along and became a Chief. But 25 one (1) of the problems that I always had, and you know,

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1 like us Dene people, we have our own ways of looking at 2 and controlling the issues on the land. 3 And -- and you know, Indian Affairs 4 basically thinks that you know, we gave you jurisdiction 5 over our land, and that's the way you're behaving. And 6 so when we agree, you know, and reading the Interim 7 Measures Agreement, and -- and you know, the framework 8 agreement, we've got to operate until there's a new 9 Dehcho agreement, we've got to operate within the 10 legislation. 11 And I guess the word "legislation" was 12 used because, you know, that is, you know, the recognized 13 law. But yet you know, we have -- us Dene people, we 14 have our own, you know, maybe they're not, you know, 15 legislation the way you would describe it, but we do have 16 laws, and way that we -- ways that we see the -- how we 17 control and protect the land. How we, you know, we try 18 to sustain the land. 19 And those things are not taken into 20 consideration in these processes so you, basically, you 21 know, by demanding that everything be done under 22 legislation you forced us to operate under the Mackenzie 23 Valley Resource Management Act which is something I would 24 never agree with because it's pro-development. 25 And so under that act there's no room for

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1 us to really make the necessary, you know, restrictions 2 that we want to put on these guys and then -- and when we 3 do you're saying, well, you're too restrictive and you're 4 not following the legislation and this morning I heard 5 the same thing from the Government of the Northwest 6 Territories. 7 You know, and -- and one of the things for 8 me that always comes to my mind is, you know, some day 9 the Dehcho process is going to -- you know, hopefully 10 we're going -- we are going to have a Dehcho process 11 where we're going to have a DCRMA, you know. 12 But the way it's going you guys are just 13 allowing everything to happen and we've got no control 14 over it and basically what's going to happen at that time 15 we're going --- not going to be able to deal with these 16 companies that you grandfathered into the process, like 17 Paramount. 18 You know, you grandfathered, you know, 19 like you grandfathered, you know, Paramount and they got 20 this lease long before 1975 and so they have a right to 21 do whatever they want, you know. 22 And there's nothing we can do. We can 23 raise the issue, talk about it, beat our heads against 24 the wall. There's nothing we can do about Paramount. 25 And right now the way that your view is that all

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1 legislation that's in place now is what's got to be 2 followed 100 percent. 3 And so what's going to happen down the 4 road is all these things that we do now, you know, you 5 guys okay, you know, Paramount, you okay, Perry Creek 6 Mines and you okay Tamerlane, you okay every -- all these 7 projects that were grandfathered in and we've got no 8 control over how they operate and you don't either 9 because, you know, there's a law in place. 10 You know, for example, when the Mackenzie 11 Valley Lands and Water Board made a recommendation to the 12 minister requesting that the -- that the minister 13 stipulate that Paramount has to deal with social and 14 economic impacts in the community that that's something 15 that, you know, they had to do they made that 16 recommendation and as soon as they did that the Canadian 17 Petroleum Association wrote a letter, within hours of 18 that thing, you know, the Lands and Water Board's 19 recommendations, within hours of it they sent a letter to 20 the minister saying if you do this we're going to sue 21 you, because if you do this it's going against the 22 Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act. 23 And the minister's hands were tied and -- 24 and he couldn't, you know, fulfil the Lands and Water 25 Board's recommendations. You know, that's the way the

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1 DAC -- or the Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act is 2 set up. It's so pro-development that as aboriginal 3 people, even though we raise our issues they're just -- 4 you know, like the Mackenzie Valley pipelines going to go 5 and there's nothing much we can do about it, you know. 6 We've just got to, you know, negotiate our 7 access agreement. There's nothing else we can say about 8 that pipeline, that's the way, you know, the Mackenzie 9 Valley Resource Management Act is set up. 10 So, you know, and -- and then this land 11 use planning process, you know, I'm going to say the same 12 thing to you as a I said to the Government of the 13 Northwest Territories, you know, like when -- you know, 14 what we're doing was we agreed to share the land with 15 you. We have jurisdiction over the land. We agreed to 16 share the land with you. 17 And up to now you've been operating the 18 way you want to operate as if you were -- you had 19 jurisdiction and you're somehow -- some document that you 20 had our people sign that couldn't read and write and you 21 didn't really -- and you told them this is what it meant 22 and it meant something else. 23 And based on that document you're applying 24 your laws to our country. And for me I object to that 25 strongly.

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1 Because I really believe that, you know, 2 as Dene people we're trying to -- you know, we're trying 3 to accommodate you. This land use for our planning 4 process, is about accommodation. It's about 5 accommodating Canada and, you know, all its people into 6 the Dehcho land. 7 And then you're sitting on the outside as 8 a newcomer saying you got jurisdiction over the land but 9 in the meanwhile our laws apply. And so when the day 10 comes we do take over the process of having jurisdiction 11 over our land, you've already got these things in place 12 that we can't do nothing about. 13 And we're telling you, here's our issues, 14 like, here they are. The Dehcho Land Use Plan is telling 15 you what we expect. But you're saying, well, it doesn't 16 fit the present legislation so we can't do it. You know, 17 and I -- I see in there it says, well, we need to enact 18 new legislation if this is going to take place. Well, 19 why can't you do that? 20 You know, how serious are you about this 21 process? How series is Canada about this process and 22 make new legislation so that the, you know, the Dehcho 23 Land Use Plan is going to be in effect. 24 But rather than accommodating us the way 25 we accommodate you, you want to use your laws and your

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1 ways of being to try to restrict us as Dene people. You 2 know, we're -- you know, like, we -- you know, like, for 3 me I understand what you're doing. 4 You know, I understand you're apartheid, 5 you know, ideas about who we are as Dene people. I 6 understand that. But, you know, like, and for me, you 7 know, my plea to not just to you, I don't know if I can 8 ever convince Indian Affairs that this the case, but you 9 know, the Canadian people that listen, I hope they really 10 take the government to task about that, because they're 11 saying your -- their government is allowed to do this 12 kind of thing. 13 Is Canada really agreed -- the people in 14 Canada really agree with what you're doing? 15 You know, by taking away our rights, 16 taking away -- you know, like today we're dependent 17 people. Why? Because there's the Mackenzie Valley 18 Resource Management Act, that makes us a dependent 19 people. 20 And we're asking you, we want to set up a 21 DCRMA that's going to make us independent. And these 22 kind of things are -- are something that's off your 23 agenda. 24 So, you know, like for me I just need to 25 say this to you. You know, maybe I'm wasting people's

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1 time here, I don't know. But I think what I have to say 2 is really important. On behalf of all the Dene people 3 that are not able to speak to you, for whatever reason. 4 But I'm going to say these things because 5 I think it's important to say them. You know, and as a 6 Dene person for me as long as I stay under your thumb 7 that's where I'm going to stay and you're doing 8 everything you can to restrict us from being able to be 9 independent. 10 You want us to be a dependent people and 11 that -- for me that's what I hear coming out of your 12 month when I hear these things. You're saying, No, look, 13 we've got you where we want you, we're not going to let 14 you up, so forget about it, we're going -- our 15 legislation, we not change -- willing to change 16 legislation. 17 How serious are you as -- like, your 18 premiers and the previous Prime Minister in -- in -- in 19 Kelowna made certain commitments to Aboriginal people. 20 You know, but yet you know, these people talked about, 21 you know, making Aboriginal people independent, when yet 22 your legislation doesn't say that. 23 And so what are you going to do to make 24 sure that the Dehcho people regain their independence 25 that we had, so that our people don't have to be abusing

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1 alcohol and drugs and all these other problems that we 2 have in our country, because that's what dependency does. 3 And so for me that's the issue I want to 4 talk about here. I don't want to -- you know, I know 5 your legislation, you know, your -- your policies are -- 6 you've got to live by them. And then but on the other 7 hand here we're giving you an opportunity to change it so 8 that you -- we can accommodate a process where the Dehcho 9 people at least have some autonomy, you don't want to do 10 it. 11 And you're saying, Well, we're not going 12 to change legislation until the Dehcho process is done. 13 You know, and for me those are real issues that I've got 14 to face on a day-to-day basis. 15 And until you start changing your attitude 16 towards us and you start trying to accommodate us as Dene 17 people, yes, we will be a dependent people. And, yes, 18 you're going to have to keep sending us money so that we 19 can live on this land because we haven't got the 20 resources nor the capability to be able to -- to do what 21 we need to do for ourselves as Dene people. 22 We're dependent on you. And we want to 23 get out of that dependency and that's what this land use 24 planning for me was all about. But, today what I'm 25 hearing from you is, Well, sorry guys we're going to keep

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1 you here. We're going to keep you under our thumbs and 2 that's the way we want you to be. 3 And so for me I -- I need to say that and 4 I know I'm taking a lot of time and but I hope that what 5 I have to say is something that these people think. You 6 know, like I don't think I'm out of touch with my people. 7 I think I'm in touch with them and I think 8 I know what the people's thinking is. So, you know, 9 like, I don't expect a response because I know what it's 10 going to be. You know, I'm used to this thing. 11 I've been sitting across from you guys 12 since my father became chief when I was twelve (12) years 13 old. I've been listening to you. And today I don't 14 expect a different response so, you know, I don't expect 15 a response. I just want to make a point here. 16 And that's a point that I think we, you 17 know, as Dene people we sit around this table and, you 18 know, like, what else can I say. Mahsi. 19 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Well, maybe you 20 don't expect a response but you're going to get one. 21 It's too bad you missed the presentation because I don't 22 think we're that far apart, despite what you might think. 23 I think if you listen carefully, as I 24 listened carefully to you, you'll see that we do want to 25 work together, that we are sincere in our commitment to

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1 make this plan a workable plan, to get it done as soon as 2 possible, to make it -- to ensure that it reflects, as 3 best we can, the visions and the aspirations of the 4 people of the Dehcho. 5 We've got some challenges but we're 6 prepared to work with them -- work through them to get to 7 where we need to be. The interim measures agreement is 8 pretty clear that there won't be changes to legislation 9 until the process is concluded. 10 That's clear and that was signed off by 11 all parties. So we're there. We've got to develop a 12 plan, it's got to be within the current legislation, it's 13 got to reflect the values and aspirations of the people 14 of the Dehcho. I think we're there too. 15 So let's move together as quickly as we 16 can to get this thing done. Let's move together as 17 quickly as we can to get the Dehcho process done. Let's 18 move together as quickly as we can to get the people of 19 the Dehcho as much -- as much control over their own 20 future as we possibly can. I don't think there's any 21 difference there. 22 And that's all I need to say about it. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 24 Any other comments, questions to the Indian Affairs on 25 their perspective? Roy...? Chief Roy Fabian...?

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1 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Yes, I guess now I'm 2 going to turn to the Dehcho land use planning. You know, 3 like, the Government of the Northwest Territories and 4 Canada raised, you know, some concerns regarding the land 5 use planning and the way it's set up. 6 And -- and my understanding is that we 7 have until the end of March to -- to -- to approve the 8 plan for whatever -- in order to implement it. Now, 9 these issues that the government is asking for, are they 10 -- are we going to be able to meet our March 31st 11 deadline if we raise those concerns and we try to address 12 those concerns? 13 That -- that's my question right now. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll have one 15 more question and I think people might want to break 16 after this and we'll continue. 17 Go ahead, Adrian Boyd. 18 MR. ADRIAN BOYD: Thank you. Thank you. 19 Thank you, Chief Fabian. It's an excellent question. We 20 have a lot of submissions that we have to go through. 21 March 31, 2006 is already an extension to the funding 22 that was provided under the Interim Measures Agreement. 23 We have, as far as I know, we have money 24 to operate this coming year but it's half of the level of 25 funding that we had to engage the communities, to -- to

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1 work with government, to work with industry and to 2 collect information. 3 So that the funding that we would receive 4 this coming year is -- is just basically enough to keep 5 the operation afloat and -- and advance the plan through 6 approval processes after submissions. 7 The Federal Government, DIAND submission 8 many of the points they've made are well taken and will 9 be easily addressed. The GNWT's submission, I don't know 10 so the Committee will, of course, will meet -- we're 11 meeting on Friday after we're done here and we're going 12 to talk about next steps and where we go from here. And 13 we're going to look at all the submissions and talk about 14 next steps and where we go from here. 15 And we're going to look at all the 16 submissions and, you know, we're going to have to get 17 back to you on what that -- on what it looks like for 18 meeting that March -- end of March deadline. 19 So I can't really answer your question 20 right now. But it's certainly -- our target is to stay 21 on course as best we can. But, again, we've got to sit 22 down and take all of the submissions and review all the 23 information and -- and decide what our next steps are 24 going to be. 25 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: I just wanted to

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1 have one (1) last comment. It relates to -- to the plan. 2 Land use planning, the negotiating of land claims is not 3 about entrenching the status quo. It's not about 4 freezing things in place. It's about making progress. 5 It's about changing things. 6 This land use planning process is about 7 changing the status quo. Government is -- is reluctant 8 to change sometimes. I mean, that's human nature 9 sometimes, but we all recognize that we need to. We all 10 recognize that this land use plan needs to -- to be one 11 (1) vehicle of many to achieve the vision of the people 12 in the Dehcho and that's going to require a change in the 13 status quo. 14 And we're committed to doing that. How we 15 do that remains to be seen. How far we can get in those 16 changes remains to be seen. But we're not talking about 17 not making changes. We all recognize that -- that we 18 need to. We must. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that -- 20 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: That's it. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is that it or have you 22 got a rebuttal on that? 23 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: No, I'm just -- 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. We're going to 25 take a break for five (5) minutes and David, don't go

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  1  anywhere, you can go for a little break but you've got to
  2  be back, okay?  
  3                 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE:   I can't run away. 
  4                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   Mahsi.  Five (5)
  5  minutes. 
  6  
  7  --- Upon recessing at 3:55 p.m.
  8  --- Upon resuming at 4:20 p.m.
  9  
 10                 THE CHAIRPERSON:   If we can, our ten (10)
 11  minutes is up.  Could we all return to our seats please. 
 12  We'll resume our meeting.  Dave Livingstone and his show,
 13  could you return to your -- to the front there please so
 14  we can continue the badgering.  
 15                 Okay, again, we'd like to continue with
 16  this friendly discussion with DIAND.  Again, the floor is
 17  open.  I think Gabe Hardisty wanted to speak.  The
 18  Pehdzeh Ki First Nation, Chief Gabe Hardisty.  Gabe...?
 19  
 20                       (BRIEF PAUSE)
 21  
 22                 CHIEF GABE HARDISTY:   We talk about these
 23  papers, especially with the land use planning that's only
 24  up until March 31st, we've got.  That's -- that's --
 25  we're going to have to use some things that we're going

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1 to be following. We've got to be involved in there. 2 And so that's what he said so I would like 3 to say something to you in return with regards to March 4 31st deadline. 5 For -- since Canada just had election and 6 they have new government in place, and with the new 7 government there are other people that we will be 8 negotiating with I wonder how it's going to be now 9 because with a different government. What do you think 10 about that? Like, you guys got policy and they're going 11 to have to review it, I suppose. 12 And also with regards to Indian Affairs, 13 the -- they have a different person that's going to be 14 their minister. So if you look at that, how is it going 15 to be -- it's pretty hard to us to make recommendations 16 or anything put forward because of this election. 17 We can't just go ahead and make this and 18 say that we assume. We can't go on assumption. For me 19 it's kind of hard to do that. With the new government 20 here in place I wonder how they're going to see the Dene 21 people. We don't know that. 22 Are they going to work good with us? We 23 don't know. That's still up in the air. With regard to 24 the March 31st deadline, for me let's wait for a while, 25 maybe even til spring or summer. And at the Assembly we

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1 can -- we can look at it and up until then we'll probably 2 know how the government function by then. So maybe we 3 can put it that far. 4 And -- and let's work on it at the same 5 time and then we can bring it forward to the Assembly, 6 that's what I'm thinking, because of the government 7 exchange, different government. And we don't know how 8 they're going to function, we don't know how they're 9 going to work. So that's my concern. So I'm just 10 telling you this is the way I think. So the government 11 has changed maybe they change your policy, we don't know. 12 We might fall into that category so that's 13 why I'm just questioning you for that. Thank you. 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, there, Gabe. 15 The floor is open. Heidi...? 16 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: I just have actually 17 one (1) general point that I think I want to clarify for 18 all the participants here. When we're talking about our 19 March 31st deadline, that's not a deadline for everyone 20 to approve the plan; that's a deadline for us to submit 21 the plan to you, to Dehcho First Nations, to the GNWT, 22 the government. 23 After that you guys will still have, you 24 know, weeks, months, whatever you need to review the plan 25 and -- and make sure that -- that you're approving it,

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1 right. So you don't have to approve the plan by March 2 31st, that's for us to get it to you, right. So then the 3 approval happens after March 31st. 4 Getting back to the DIAND presentation and 5 submission, I just have one (1) final point that I wanted 6 to address and it's more of a comment, maybe a bit of a 7 question. And it's with respect to reclamation planning 8 with respect to mining. 9 The plan has a conformity requirement in 10 it that sets conditions for mine reclamation and 11 security. And one (1) of the points or the conditions is 12 that if there is a new mining activity where a portion of 13 the mine would leave a lasting effect -- you know, 14 something that couldn't be reclaimed and cleaned up, that 15 the affected First Nations and communities would have to 16 support that before the project would go ahead. 17 Now, DIAND, in their submissions, states 18 the following: 19 "It appears that the First Nations have 20 a veto on acceptance of the mining 21 legacy portions of a reclamation 22 project. Lands..." 23 And that's land administration, I believe. 24 "... has a problem with this as the 25 ball will be solely in the court of

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1 industry if the mining legacy is not 2 accepted by the First Nations. The 3 First Nations will essentially force 4 the proponent to exhaust all resources 5 to prevent something that is accepted 6 and understood as part of mining." 7 And I think that statement raises a 8 fundamental issue that the plan is trying to address and 9 that the communities continually raise with us, and that 10 is the people who accept and understand the mining legacy 11 are hundreds of kilometres away from the people who have 12 -- actually are affected and live with that mining 13 legacy. 14 And that is one (1) of the -- that's the 15 reason why that term is in there because the people whose 16 backyards are affected and whose health and well-being 17 are affected which the plan is supposed to promote do not 18 currently have the authority to say, we're affected. 19 This does not work for us. 20 So, I guess, I had to point out that one 21 clause in DIAND's submission that I still found very 22 troubling. 23 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Yes, let me try 24 to address that. The -- a couple of points. One (1) is, 25 we all recognize, I think, the need for better

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1 environmental assessment processes that -- that better 2 engage the First Nations that ensure that all parties 3 understand the environmental cost of doing business and 4 the social and economic costs and benefits. 5 There isn't a mining project anywhere that 6 hasn't resulted in some residual effect. We all need to 7 understand what that effect is. And I think it's -- it's 8 incumbent on government to make sure that -- that the -- 9 that the consultation process sufficiently informs the 10 aboriginal peoples so that they understand too what the - 11 - the residual effect is going to be and their concerns 12 are accommodated. 13 So I -- I understand the intent of the -- 14 the Plan in that area and I think that there are ways to 15 address that concern, certainly ways that would improve 16 our current practices. 17 I just want to get back to Chief 18 Hardisty's question about the impact of the new 19 government. And I -- I think it's fair to say that we 20 don't -- we don't know yet what that impact will be. But 21 it gets to the point made earlier that the sooner we 22 finish the discussions on the land use plan, the sooner 23 that we have a plan that we can all support, the better. 24 And the same thing for the Dehcho process. 25 It probably doesn't matter a great deal what particular

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1 government is in power. The previous Conservative 2 Governments have been quite supportive of land claims 3 negotiations and -- and in fact in some area 4 environmental initiatives. 5 So I'm hopeful that there won't be a 6 significant impact but, of course, we don't know yet. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, David. 8 Chief Roy Fabian, K'atlodeeche. 9 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: For me, because I've 10 got an abandoned mine in my territory it's really 11 difficult for me to -- to say that -- to hear that 12 comment that, you know, what the, you know, what -- what 13 was that comment that she read there about, Well, this is 14 -- this is part of mining process. 15 And for me I'm talking about Pine Point 16 mines and what they abandoned there. I don't know if 17 you've personally seen that like for me I flew over that 18 one (1) spring and what I saw was -- was, you know, that 19 kind of stuff should be outlawed. 20 Like, they left and abandoned the mine 21 with something like thirty-three (33) holes, big, huge 22 holes and some of those holes now are full of blue 23 turquoise water. And my understanding of that, that's 24 because of some kind of minerals that are emitting, you 25 know, this water.

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1 You know, and then the other thing that I 2 see there is about a one square mile of tailings. That's 3 one square mile and it's about the height of this 4 building, you know, that's been left behind. 5 And you know, there's -- there's concern, 6 not only, you know, from us but from the people in Fort 7 Resolution that, you know, there's -- there's, you know, 8 there's environmental, you know, severe environmental 9 issues surrounding that mine. 10 And you want us to find that to be 11 acceptable? You know, and that's what basically I'm 12 hearing you guys saying your submission that, you know, 13 you know, too bad but that's part of mining. 14 I -- I -- you know, for me it's too 15 difficult to say that I'm going to -- that's -- I'm going 16 to accept that. I think the Government of Canada was 17 negligent in that they allowed, you know, Pine Point Mine 18 to go in the direction it did and -- and abandon it. And 19 -- and they're not doing anything to reclaim that land or 20 anything. 21 And -- and then they want us to try to 22 accommodate mining in a way that the same thing might 23 happen. You know, the same kind of -- of result may -- 24 may take place. And that I -- I just find that totally 25 unacceptable.

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1 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Well, that's not 2 exactly what I said. In any -- any case, we are learning 3 from past mistakes. The BHP and DIAVIK Mines are 4 operating under full security, so the cost of remediation 5 for those sites will be covered by the -- the mining 6 company. 7 The point I was trying to make is that -- 8 that even in the best of circumstances, mining leaves a 9 scar. And we need to understand collectively what the 10 cost of doing business is and whether that's acceptable 11 or not and then make a -- an informed decision. 12 I think the environmental assessment 13 process and the regulatory process need to better 14 accommodate the concerns of the aboriginal peoples, and I 15 think we can get there. That's it. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, David 17 Livingstone. Jennifer Morin, CPAWS...? Roy...? 18 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Yeah. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry about that. 20 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: The issue, you know, 21 the issue that Heidi had raised in regard to this whole 22 issue of -- it appears that First Nations have a veto on 23 acceptance of a mining legacy proportions of the 24 reclamation project. That -- that comment is what I was 25 referring to.

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1 And basically what it says is: 2 "The FN's will essentially force 3 proponents to exhaust all resources to 4 prevent something that is accepted and 5 understood as part of mining." 6 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Yeah. The point 7 that we're trying to make there is that -- that in the 8 current -- in the current legislative context, 9 communities do not have a veto over mining proposals. We 10 need to improve, in the current context, environmental 11 assessment and regulatory process so that there's better 12 involvement of the aboriginal peoples in those processes. 13 If as part of the Dehcho process the 14 parties agree that -- that in fact in -- in circumstances 15 like this that the community should have a veto, sobeit, 16 and the legislation would be changed accordingly. But 17 that's not the -- the case now. 18 And I -- I've flown over Pine Point and I 19 don't like it either. But that -- it's an old situation 20 and I hope we don't go there again. And we should learn 21 from past mistakes. 22 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: I guess -- I guess the 23 issue -- the issue here is that the thing that it -- 24 something that is accepted and understood as part of 25 mining, that -- that's the part that I'm concerned about,

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1 like -- 2 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Hmm hmm. 3 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: -- you know, there are 4 -- like, for example, if you take a look at Giant Mine, 5 which is even more atrocious than what's happening in -- 6 you know, is that an accepted thing? I don't think so. 7 I don't think people are accepting that 8 as, you know, as part of mining. And -- and we -- we, 9 you know, we need to make sure that, you know, under our 10 process that -- you know, even -- even before they get 11 their licence they better have some kind of a plan in 12 place on how they're going to reclaim once they're done 13 with -- with, you know, doing the mining. And that's a 14 problem that we're having, you know, presently the issue 15 with Prairie Creek Mines. 16 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Hmm hmm. 17 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: Like, even before they 18 started their operation they hade a big environment 19 issue, even, like, before they started mining. So those 20 kind of issues should never happen. 21 And -- and, you know, and for me that -- 22 those are the issues that I want to make sure that, you 23 know, these people that go on our -- go on the land, 24 using it, that they're going to have plans in place on 25 how they're going to, you know, recover the land or

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1 remediate the land once they're done with it. 2 And -- and, you know, that -- I guess 3 that's the issue that is being raised here, and -- and 4 somehow the, you know, like -- like the history shows us 5 you know, how, you know, Indian Affairs had dealt with 6 these issues in the past, and -- and it's too bad that, 7 you know, like the issue with Prairie Creek Mines, is -- 8 is still ongoing and unresolved, you know. 9 And, and the same thing with Pine Point 10 Mines. You know like, you know, where right -- even at 11 the Giant Mines, it's -- it's, you know like, if anything 12 they -- that you know, you don't know what's under the 13 ground, whatever leaks out. 14 They say, you know, even one (1) cup 15 escapes it will destroy the whole Mackenzie Valley from 16 Little River down -- down the Mackenzie Valley and -- and 17 you know that's scary when you hear stuff like that. 18 And so for us, you know, I guess the whole 19 issue is about making sure that we -- we, you know, we -- 20 we don't see that happen and -- and, you know like, maybe 21 sometimes I have a hard time understanding English, 22 because it isn't my first language, and maybe I 23 misunderstand. 24 But I just want to make sure that you're 25 aware that, you know, we don't accept what -- what

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1 happened in Pine Point, we don't accept what's happened 2 within Prairie Creek Mines, what's happened in Pine Point 3 as, you know, as -- those are acceptable practises. 4 We've never accepted them. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 6 Any rebuttal or questions on that, Brother 7 David, or are you just thinking? 8 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Should I -- 9 should I respond and get another rebuttal to my rebuttal, 10 or should I just leave it. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh, whatever you -- 12 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: I guess what I 13 can say is that I -- I fully understand what I'm being 14 told, and I -- we don't want to go back there again 15 either. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. I realize here 17 we...oh yes, yes. I know we have another speaker, but I 18 would like to just mention that we have other -- six (6) 19 other presenters here and I don't know if we have the 20 time this afternoon to do them all. 21 So with that, Jennifer Morin, from CPAWS. 22 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Well, I hate to 23 disappoint that I won't be giving my presentation. I 24 just had a quick question for DIAND. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Be nice now.

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1 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Given the discussion 2 that we had around cumulative effects and the issues of 3 trying to protect the Caribou before it's too late, I 4 wanted to know whether or not DIAND would support 5 research on cumulative effects and further developing in 6 defining and supporting the good work the Committee has 7 done on cumulative effects to date. 8 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Absolutely. 9 We're -- we're working on it now and will continue to 10 work on it and we'd -- we'd look forward to working with 11 Petr in more detail. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Just to also let the 13 Membership Governments, First Nations realize this is 14 your Table, so if you have any further comments or 15 questions to DIAND, I don't have a problem with it. 16 Eric Betsaka, Nahanni Butte First Nation, 17 Chief...? 18 CHIEF ERIC BETSAKA: Well, I guess, you 19 know, we're -- we're a community that's quite concerned 20 with the Prairie Creek Mine and, you know, it's been a 21 real struggle in the last couple of years for us. 22 Just recently I've been told that, you 23 know, this -- this project's going to go into some type 24 of development. It seems that somebody greased their 25 wheels so-to-speak, and you know, they're -- they're

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1 going to -- some development's going to take place. 2 And for a community that's directly 3 impacted, and the environmental concerns we have, seeing 4 as there hasn't been no real environmental assessment 5 been done, we're kind of, well for me, just to speak 6 freely, it seems that, you know, we're getting something 7 shoved down our throat, basically, you know, eat it and 8 like it. 9 I've been a Chief just over a year, and 10 since I've been in the community there's nothing but 11 constant pressure from different government departments 12 for development. 13 You know, I -- I take a look at our -- our 14 small little community and we barely have anything for -- 15 for infrastructure. So, you know, we must have about 16 twenty (20), thirty (30) kids, we have no appropriate 17 facility for them to, you know, to interact with each 18 other after hours or for recreational activities. 19 So in the past year, you know, I -- I 20 think I've raised some -- some concern with it and, you 21 know, finally our -- our voice is being heard. 22 So, you know, coming here today, I thought 23 the -- the land use plan, you know, what we -- we had 24 was, you know, fairly good in terms of development and 25 conservation. And thinking about -- a little bit about

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1 the history of mining, I'm not sure what -- you know, how 2 many billions of dollars of cleanup is left to do in the 3 NWT or how many mines have been abandoned. So, you know, 4 it takes taxpayers money to -- to restore these sites. 5 So I guess my question would be, you know, 6 if you're -- you're sitting there saying, you know, this 7 project is in the best interest of Canadians, well who's 8 going to clean it up? And how -- you know, the Dehcho 9 process is, you know, going on and after the final 10 agreement, who's going to restore and -- and clean up 11 these sites if these -- these mines are abandoned? 12 That -- that's all I -- I wanted to say. 13 It's just there's lots of pressure from everywhere and, 14 you know, our little community has got squat. 15 Thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Eric. Dave...? 17 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Yeah. I hear 18 you. In my view the -- the environmental legacy of much 19 of the mining in the NWT has not been what it should be, 20 and we've learned from that. Sometimes we learn more 21 slowly than we should. 22 Whether a project is in the best interest 23 of Canadians is -- is the end question of -- of the 24 review process that -- that's undertaken. It's the 25 question that is asked of the Environmental Impact Review

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1 Board and the Land and Water Board, and so on. And those 2 -- those boards make the decision based on the best 3 advice that they have, and that advice comes from 4 government, it comes from industry, it comes from the 5 communities. 6 And then in the end those boards make a 7 determination. In some cases the determination then goes 8 to the minister, responsible minister, and that -- that 9 minister reflects on all the factors and -- and makes a 10 final decision. 11 Who pays for the damage? Well, now it's 12 pretty clear that for new mines the proponent pays for 13 the damage. And it's our responsibility, as government, 14 to make sure that the proponent, the mining company, puts 15 in security the amount that's required to clean up the 16 site. And for BHP and Dyavik, each of those mines has 17 got about -- well we have about $125 million in security 18 to clean up the sites, if those companies can't do it 19 themselves. 20 For old mines it's a little more 21 difficult. We have the -- the mine site remediation 22 policy that basically says for old mines there's a -- 23 there's a transition that -- for existing mines, that we 24 -- we move toward full security as quickly as possible. 25 And only if the mining company can clearly demonstrate

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1 that for whatever reason, it can't cover the cost of 2 security, would the taxpayer step in. 3 So old mines and new mines, there should 4 be a world of difference. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Dave. 6 Any further comments? I know it's going to five o'clock. 7 Are we running out of steam, how are we doing? 8 Okay, if there are no further comments, 9 we'd like to thank David Livingstone and his crew for 10 coming forward, and want to thank you. 11 12 (BRIEF PAUSE) 13 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, maybe what we'll 15 do, we still had something like about five/six (5/6) 16 presenters. What we'll do is we'll compress it for 17 tomorrow morning, and we'll just call the break for the 18 evening. 19 So what we'll do is just shut the meeting 20 down tonight. There's a couple of smaller meetings here 21 that are going to be taking place this evening, so -- and 22 everybody's pretty well burnt out I think, from a good 23 long day's presentations. 24 And again, if we can make sure that the 25 presenters are here right at 9:00, the Canadian

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1 Association of Petroleum Producers who are going to be 2 the first people, followed by Anadarko, Canadian Zinc, 3 the NGOs, Canadian Parks and Wilderness and the World 4 Wildlife Fund. So in that order, we'll try to deal with 5 them tomorrow morning up until lunch. 6 So again, we'd like to bring this meeting 7 to a close. I just have a brief announcement. We 8 mentioned this morning that we had lost one (1) of our 9 Elders, Alberteen Road. I understand that there is going 10 to be funeral services on Saturday in Fort Simpson. I 11 think it would be Saturday afternoon. So if people are 12 interested in making arrangements for themselves, the 13 arrangements are being made for Saturday afternoon in 14 Fort Simpson. 15 So I'd like to call upon maybe one (1) of 16 our Elders to do a closing prayer. Maybe a younger 17 person, how about Stanley? Stanley Sanquez will do the 18 closing prayer. Could we all rise please? 19 20 (CLOSING PRAYER) 21 22 CHIEF STANLEY SANQUEZ: Thank you, Herb, 23 for -- for giving the opportunity to do the closing 24 prayer for the people and our guests and our elders. And 25 our condolences to Alberteen in her travel up there

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1 somewhere. We'll -- we'll ask her that the Creator that 2 help her and us in our deliberations here as Government, 3 Chiefs, Elders, the youth, and our guests. 4 We open our hearts and our minds in the 5 deliberations, Creator, so that we could speak with an 6 open heart so that we're not holding anything back. This 7 is the only time we have a place to -- to speak, and to 8 talk like this. 9 We ask your guidance tonight, so that we 10 sleep good tonight and come back in the morning with a 11 fresh mind and body. Mahsi cho. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, mahsi. 13 14 --- Upon adjourning at 4:55 p.m. 15 16 17 18 Certified Correct 19 20 21 22 ________________________ 23 Wendy Warnock 24 25