11 2 3 4 5 6 Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee 7 Regional Forum 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Before: Herb Norwegian - Chairperson 15 Adrian Boyd - Board Member 16 Petr Cizek - Board Member 17 Ron Antoine - Board Member 18 Tim Lennie - Board Member 19 20 21 22 Held at: Hay River Reserve 23 Chief Lamalice Complex 24 February 7th, 2006 25
21 APPEARANCES 2 Heidi Wiebe )Board Staff 3 Paul Wilson ) 4 Monika Templin ) 5 Priscilla Canadien ) 6 Sophie Bonnetrouge ) 7 8 Chief Roy Fabian )Katlodeeche First Nation 9 Pat Martel ) 10 11 Chief Lloyd Chicot )Ka'a'gee Tu First Nation 12 Gabe Chicot ) 13 Sara Chicot ) 14 George Simba ) 15 16 Theresa Elleze )Deh Gah Got'ie Dene Council 17 Phillip Elleze ) 18 Murina Sabourin ) 19 20 Chief Dennis Deneron )Sambaa K'e Dene Band 21 Edward Jumbo ) 22 Rebecca Jumbo ) 23 Ruby Jumbo ) 24 25
31 APPEARANCES (con't) 2 Chief Harry Deneron )Acho Dene Koe Band 3 Stanley Bertrand ) 4 Phillip Battle ) 5 6 Marie Lafferty )Fort Simpson Metis Local 52 7 Barb Villeneuve ) 8 Jonas Lafferty ) 9 Lisa Lafferty ) 10 Kelly Pennycook ) 11 12 Chief Stanley Sanguez )Jean Marie River First Nation 13 Margaret Ireland ) 14 Tyrone Sanguez ) 15 Ernest Hardisty ) 16 17 Richard Lafferty )Fort Providence Metis Local 57 18 Gilbert Bouvier ) 19 Georgette Bouvier ) 20 21 Chief Eric Betsaka )Nahanni Butte Dene Band 22 Jonas Marcellais 23 Elsie Marcellais 24 25
41 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 Chief Harry Deneron ) Acho Dene Koe First Nation 3 Phillip Battle 4 5 Chief Keyna Norwegian ) Liidle Kue First Nation 6 Ernest Michael ) 7 Robert Hardisty ) 8 Jonas Antoine ) 9 10 Chief Karen Thomas Felker ) West Point First Nation 11 Sonya Cayen ) 12 Jim Thomas ) 13 William Michele ) 14 15 Chief Gabe Hardisty ) Pehdzeh Ki First Nation 16 Fred William ) 17 Michael Neyelle ) 18 19 David Livingstone ) DIAND 20 Greg Yeoman ) 21 Arthur Boutilier ) 22 Gary Bohnet ) 23 Gary Potts ) 24 Tony Riley ) 25 Michael Walsh )
51 APPEARANCES (cont'd) 2 3 Glen Stephens ) DIAND cont'd 4 Philip Maracle ) 5 Mark Prystupa ) 6 7 Tom Beaulieu ) GNWT 8 Carolyn Laude ) 9 Jane McMullen ) 10 Jack Bird ) 11 Greg Brady ) 12 Ian Butters ) 13 Steve Iveson ) 14 Tom Lakusta ) 15 16 Terry Forkheim ) Anadarko 17 Andrew Loosley 18 19 Erica Janes ) CPAWS 20 Jennifer Morin ) 21 22 Ross Papirnick ) Imperial Oil 23 24 Mike Peters ) Canadian Association of 25 Petroleum Producers
61 Appearances (cont'd) 2 3 Dan O'Rourke ) Canadian Zinc 4 5 William Carpenter ) World Wildlife Fund 6 Angus Lennie ) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
71 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 Introductions and discussion 8 4 5 Presentation by Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee 44 6 7 Community Presentations 8 Katlodeeche First Nation 88 9 West Point First Nation 109 10 Fort Providence Metis Local 57 110 11 Jean Marie River First Nation 115S 12 Ka'a'gee Tu First Nation 120 13 Sambaa K'e Dene Band 130 14 Nahanni Butte Dene Band 138 15 Liidli Kue First Nation 141 16 Fort Simpson Metis Local 52 152 17 Pehdzeh Ki First Nation 159 18 19 20 Certificate of Transcript 167 21 22 23 24 25
81 (FIRE FEEDING CEREMONY) 2 3 --- Upon commencing at 10:14 a.m. 4 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. If we can begin. 6 I'd like to call up one (1) of our lead drummers Joe 7 Tambour to say a couple of words just on this morning's 8 ceremony. So Joe if you're here? 9 10 (BRIEF PAUSE) 11 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Joe...? 13 14 (THROUGH SOUTH SLAVEY INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 15 16 MR. JOE TAMBOUR: Thank you. Massi. 17 We don't seem to remember these things. A 18 long time ago they used to do these things and when we 19 have respect for things like that, when -- when we -- I'd 20 like to thank everybody that was drumming with me this 21 morning and they sang with, along with me. Even though 22 I'm sitting in front of them you know I -- we have to 23 have respect for these kinds of people when we have these 24 kind of ceremonies like this. 25 We have to think about the future when
91 we're doing these kinds of things, when we're talking 2 about important stuff like this we -- we are not -- I 3 have been thinking about all these things a long time 4 ago. We can't just start a meeting like this. We have 5 to pray and have ceremonies like this. 6 We have very important things to discuss 7 so we have to do these kinds of things. I'd like to 8 thank all those drummers and some of them -- some are 9 from out of town and some of them from in town here. 10 11 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 12 13 MR. JOE TAMBOUR: I just want to say thank 14 you very much for the outstanding job here on the reserve 15 to do the opening ceremony. Sometimes the drummers have 16 forgotten. They're very important people. They're the 17 ones do the ceremony to thank the Creator for what we 18 eat, what the day has given us. You know, if it wasn't 19 for them you won't have this kind of a beautiful day. 20 They're very important people and you've got to remember 21 that. 22 On behalf of the Katiodeeche drummer as 23 the leader I've got to say thank you to all the other 24 drummers that drum with me. If you come from a different 25 community it don't matter, we have one (1) voice and one
101 (1) Creator and I'm very grateful at this hour to say 2 thank you to the drummers, even our Grand Chief drumming 3 with us. It's an honour. And you know that's the only 4 time he comes down to our level, when he drums with us. 5 Mahsi cho. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Joe. 7 Again we'd like to move on with our agenda. What I'd 8 like to do is just to give you a quick introduction to 9 the people that are -- that are running the show here and 10 hosting this meeting and -- and will be doing some work 11 with you throughout the -- the meeting. 12 For myself, my name is Herb Norwegian. 13 I'm the Chair for the Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee. 14 With me I also have a number of representatives that sit 15 on the -- on the committee. 16 We have Adrian Boyd to my right who is the 17 Federal Government representative and of course to his 18 right is Petr Cizek, Dehcho representative. People -- 19 people know Peter for the work that he's done in the 20 communities on traditional land use mapping. 21 And of course to the right of Peter is Tim 22 Lennie. Tim is a former chief, harvester and just about 23 an all around kind of guy. So this is our former chief. 24 And of course we also have another young 25 man there that's come on board with us in the last little
111 while, Ron Antoine, who is an RWED representative from 2 the GNWT. 3 Ron has been -- been working with 4 government for a number of years but he's also been one 5 of the guys that had planted the seed with Land Use 6 Planning. He was one of the guys that did -- did the 7 traditional land use occupancy mapping back almost about 8 ten (10) years ago, so Ron brings some experience to the 9 committee. 10 So this is the -- the people that are at 11 the committee level. Did I miss anybody? 12 And I'll turn it over to Heidi so she can 13 introduce her staff. Heidi...? 14 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Okay. My name is Heidi 15 Wiebe. I'm the Executive Director for the Land Use 16 Planning Committee. We have five (5) staff in an office 17 in Fort Providence and they are Monica Templin is our GIS 18 Analyst, Paul Wilson is our Land Use Planner, Priscilla 19 Canadien is our Land Use Planner Trainee, and Sophie 20 Bonnetrouge is our Office Manager over at the table over 21 there. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks. Thanks 23 there, Heidi. 24 If we can move on we'd like to maybe call 25 on the host community chief, Chief Roy Fabian of
121 Katlodeeche to make some opening comments as the host 2 chief. 3 Roy...? 4 5 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 6 7 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: I'd like to thank 8 everybody that is here at the meeting. We'd like to 9 help you out and feed you. If you are travelling to our 10 community like this we like to help you out any way that 11 we can. 12 We're going to be meeting here for three 13 (3) days. What we are talking about here, we're talking 14 about the land and how -- how it's going to be in the 15 future and how it's going to be -- how it's going to be 16 for our kids in the future and -- and their children's 17 children. 18 So even though we don't know what's going 19 happen we -- right now we're working on the -- for that, 20 so that we fix it real good for them. We're going to -- 21 we're -- they're going to be thankful for us fixing all 22 these things for them in future. 23 But our elders in the past that -- and all 24 this was -- and we're thankful for them for helping us. 25 They have protected our land for us and they have fixed
131 everything for us and so it's our turn to think about our 2 kids for the future. 3 We have to -- so we have to be thankful 4 for everything. I'd like to thank all the chiefs that 5 are here and all the elders that are here. I would like 6 to thank the elders who being here and even those youth 7 that are with them too. 8 Those youth, what's going to happen to -- 9 to them in the future if they maybe -- they have to 10 listen to what the people are saying here and what's 11 going to happen to them in the future. And they have to 12 ask advice from their elders. 13 And in the future you're going to be doing 14 this for your kids so you have to pick up these words 15 from the meeting here and also those treaty and -- and 16 all those people. I'm thankful for all those people that 17 are arrived in this -- for this here. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Roy. 19 This morning what we'd like to do is to begin having the 20 delegates introduce themselves. We'll go around the 21 table and around the -- the hall so that they can 22 identify themselves. 23 What we'd like you to do is just tell us 24 who you are and which community you're from. So if we 25 can maybe we can start with Stanley and go around the
141 table and then we can also pass a loose microphone around 2 if we can. 3 Okay, Stan...? 4 5 (BRIEF PAUSE) 6 7 CHIEF STANLEY SANQUEZ: Good morning. 8 Chief Stan Sanquez from Jean Marie River First Nations. 9 I -- I got my elder Ernest Hardisty here, my woman, T.k 10 Asbestos, I call her, Margaret Ireland and my youth 11 Tyrone Sanquez, my son. 12 CHIEF STANLEY SANQUEZ: Thank you. 13 CHIEF ERIC BETSAKA: Good morning. Chief 14 Eric Betsaka from Nahanni Butte. I've got elders Jonas 15 and Elsie Marcellais with me and youth, RoseAnne 16 Konisenta. We also brought in a couple of other 17 individuals that are interested in coming to the meeting, 18 Jane Konisenta, Tom Konisenta and another youth, Daryl 19 Betsaka. Thank you. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Gilbert...? 21 MR. GILBERT BOUVIER: Gilbert Bouvier, 22 Fort Providence Metis Association. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hmm hmm. Okay. 24 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: Sorry about that. 25 I'm Richard Lafferty representing the Fort Providence
151 Metis Council. I have Elder Gilbert Bouvier with me and 2 off on the side there is Georgette Bouvier who is our 3 Assistant Community Manager position trainee. And then 4 Gemma Bouvier (phonetic) is here with us as a youth 5 delegate. Mahsi. 6 MR. JONAS ANTOINE: My name is Jonas 7 Antoine, delegate for Fort Simpson. We're still awaiting 8 our Chief Keyna Norwegian to arrive. 9 We have a delegation of Robert Hardisty, 10 Ernest Michel, Celine Antoine, and a designated youth 11 delegate Sechay Antoine (phonetic). 12 CHIEF KAREN THOMAS FELKER: Chief Karen 13 Felker, West Point First Nation. The delegation I 14 brought with me is Elder Jim Thomas, Elder and Harvester 15 William Michel, Councillor and Harvester Nancy Michel, 16 Councillor, Secretary -- what else do you do, Sonya 17 Cayen, and our resource person Chris Paci. Mahsi cho. 18 CHIEF GABE HARDISTY: Mahsi cho too. 19 February 2nd (SPOKEN IN NATIVE LANGUAGE) 20 21 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 22 23 I have been elected as the chief for 24 Wrigley. Who are sitting with is Michael Neyelle, Albert 25 Moses, Darcy Moses, and also Timmy Lenny and the youth.
161 She had to go see a doctor so she never came with us. 2 And the protected area -- Darcy Woods 3 (phonetic) land use. I'd like to thank all those people 4 that are working with me, and who are going to be meeting 5 here for three (3) days. I'd like to thank the creator 6 for everything that we have here. And we pray for that. 7 8 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 9 10 MR. GABE HARDISTY: Oh, my name is Gabe 11 Hardisty I'm the Chief of the Pehdzeh Ki First Nation, 12 sorry. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Where's Dennis? 14 MS. RUBY JUMBO: Chief Dennis Deneron is 15 coming in and we have delegates, Edward Jumbo, youth 16 Rebecca Jumbo, Ruby Jumbo, and Dolphus Jumbo from Trout 17 Lake. 18 19 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 20 21 CHIEF LLOYD CHICOT: My name is Lloyd 22 Chicot from Kakisa. I'd like to thank everybody for 23 being here, and it's good to see you this morning. Who 24 are with me are Sarah Chicot, and George Simba, and Gabe 25 Chicot, who couldn't be here today and tomorrow. There's
171 some people from Kakisa that will be here too. 2 MS. MARIE LAFFERTY: I'm Marie Lafferty 3 from Fort Simpson Metis Nation, President, we've got our 4 elder, Jonas Lafferty with us. The female member, Barb 5 Villeneuve, the youth is my niece, Lisa Lafferty and she 6 brought her new baby along with her, J.C., and that makes 7 up for our delegation, thank you. I forgot -- I forgot 8 Kelly, sorry, Kelly. Kelly is our tech person and -- and 9 resource person, thank you. 10 11 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 12 13 MR. STANLEY BERTRANT: Phillip Maracale 14 is with me, he is for the elders, Ray Bugghins is here, 15 he's an elder too. And for the youth is Josie 16 Tourangeau, she's -- she's sitting over there too. 17 And there's three (3) girls that are 18 working with me, Rachel -- Rachel Tambour who is -- who 19 is working with me. She works as the Dehcho Coordinator. 20 She is a -- and Victoria Ste. James, she -- she works in 21 the Lands and Resources that's in all of this. And Berta 22 Tambour, she's -- she's a TLD Coordinator for all of 23 this. And our councillors here are -- they are working 24 on the other thing so they cannot be here. They'll be 25 here later on when they're not too busy.
181 THE CHAIRPERSON: Hmm hmm. 2 CHIEF HARRY DENERON: My name is Harry 3 Deneron, I'm Chief of Fort Liard First Nation. With me 4 to the right is Stanley Bertrant, Phillip Bertrant -- 5 Phillip Battle. We have our resource persons here, Shane 6 in the back here, and they will -- later on today we'll 7 have three (3) more coming in, they're going to be 8 joining us, so thank you. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 M/WO GEORDIE HARRISON: Good morning, I'm 11 Master Warrant Officer Geordie Harrison from Joint Task 12 Force North in Yellowknife, I'm pleased to be here, thank 13 you. 14 MS. ERICA JANES: Hi, my name is Erica 15 Janes, I'm Conservation Coordinator with the Canadian 16 Parks and Wilderness Society, NWT Chapter. 17 MS. JENNIFER MORIN: Hi, my name is 18 Jennifer Morin, I'm the Senior Conservation Coordinator 19 with CPAWS, or the Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society. 20 Thank you so much for having us here, there's good energy 21 in the room and I really hope the next few days will be 22 positive and productive. 23 MR. DAVID LIVINGSTONE: Good morning, I'm 24 David Livingstone with Indian and Northern Affairs in 25 Yellowknife.
191 MS. LENNY KEOUGH: My name is Leni 2 Keough, I'm an Exploration Geologist and I work for the 3 Mineral Exploration Industry. 4 MR. JOHN THATCHET: Good morning, my name 5 is John Thatchet and I'm legal counsel with the 6 Department of Justice Canada. 7 MR. GREG BRADY: Hi, my name is Greg 8 Brady and I'm with the Industry Tourism and Investment of 9 GNWT. 10 MR. FRED NORWEGIAN: Good morning, Fred 11 Norwegian, just represent -- representing Jean Marie. 12 I'm not representing Jean Marie, I'm just from Jean Marie 13 River, just listening in today, thank you. 14 MS. GILLIAN MCKEE: Good morning, my name 15 is Gillian McKee, I'm visiting here from Whitehorse, 16 Yukon. 17 MS. JANE MCMULLEN: Hello, I'm Jane 18 McMullen with the Government of Northwest Territories, 19 Environment and Natural Resources. 20 MR. ROSS PAPIRNICK: Good morning, I'm 21 Ross Papirnick with Imperial Oil on the Mackenzie Gas 22 Project. 23 MS. BERNADETTE MACLEOD: Hello, my name 24 is Bernadette Macleod, I work with the Federal Government 25 as legal counsel.
201 MR. GARY POTTS: My name is Gary Potts, I 2 work as Intergovernmental Affairs Specialist with DIAND. 3 MS. LYNN PARTEL: Good morning, I'm Lynn 4 Partel, and I work with the Federal Dehcho Process Team. 5 MS. TONI RILEY: Good morning, I'm Toni 6 Riley, and I work with Indian Affairs in Yellowknife. 7 MS. SUSAN MACDONALD: Good morning, Susan 8 MacDonald, I'm from Indian and Northern Affairs in 9 Ottawa. 10 MR. MIKE WALSH: I guess we all have to 11 stand up. I'm Mike Walsh, I'm a Lands Negotiator for the 12 Federal Government. 13 MR. TIM CHRISTIAN: Good morning, my name 14 is Tim Christian, I'm the Chief Federal Negotiator on the 15 Dehcho process, and it's great to be here, thank you very 16 much for your hospitality. 17 MR. MARK PRYSTUPA: Hi, I'm Mark 18 Prystupa, I'm with the Federal Government, working on the 19 Dehcho process. 20 MR. GREG YEOMAN: Hi, my name's Greg 21 Yeoman, I'm with Indian and Northern affairs in 22 Yellowknife. 23 MR. ARTHUR POUTILIER: Good morning, 24 Arthur Poutilier with Environment and Conservation, 25 Northern Affairs in Yellowknife.
211 MR. GLEN STEPHENS: Glen Stephens, Indian 2 and Northern Affairs in Ottawa. 3 MR. CHUCK WHITE: Chuck White, Nahanni 4 National Park. 5 MR. STEPHEN CATTO: Good morning, I'm 6 Stephen Catto with Parks Canada. 7 MR. DAVID MURRAY: Good morning, David 8 Murray, I'm with the Park Establishment Branch of Parks 9 Canada. 10 MR. KARL MUELLER: My name is Karl 11 Mueller, I'm from Enterprise. 12 MR. DAVID COOK: Good morning, I'm David 13 Cook, I'm the Resource Management Coordinator for Dehcho 14 First Nations. 15 MS. RIA LETCHER: Good morning, I'm Ria 16 Letcher, Assistant Negotiator with Dehcho First Nations. 17 MS. VIOLET SANQUEZ: Violet Sanquez, 18 Language Specialist, Dehcho First Nations. 19 MR. PHILLIP MARACLE: Phillip Maracle, 20 Assistant Negotiator, Federal Dehcho Team. 21 MS. CYNTHIA LANDEVILLE: Cynthia 22 Landeville (phonetic), Negotiation Secretary for Dehcho 23 First Nation. 24 MR. CHRIS REED: Good morning, Chris 25 Reed, legal counsel, Dehcho First Nations.
221 MS. LAURA PITKANEN: Laura Pitkanen, 2 Dehcho First Nations. 3 MR GEORGE ERASMUS: Negotiator Dehcho. 4 MR. PATRICK SCOTT: Patrick Scott, Dehcho 5 Claims Coordinator. 6 MS. ALISON DePELHAM: Alison DePelham, 7 Dehcho First Nations, Executive Director. 8 MR. CHRIS PACI: Chris Paci with 9 Westpoint First Nation. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Is there anyone else 11 that would like to be introduced? 12 MR. DAVE NICKERSON: I'm Dave Nickerson, 13 I'm a prospector and land user, and probably one (1) of 14 the very few people here today who isn't getting paid for 15 being here. 16 MR. ANGUS LENNIE: Yeah, my name's Angus 17 Lennie, I'm a consultant and working with the World 18 Wildlife Fund. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: No one else? Okay, if 20 there is no one else that needs introduction, let's move 21 along. 22 Just a couple of quick announcements. 23 First of all, I would like to -- we'd like to 24 congratulate a newly elected Chief, Gabe Hardisty. Gabe 25 Hardisty of Pehdzeh Ki First Nation.
231 Gabe won by a big landslide vote of one 2 (1) vote or something like that. We had to tell him to 3 go home to go ahead and vote, if we didn't do that it 4 would have been a tie I guess. Congratulations there, 5 Gabe. 6 Again, if you notice that there are a lot 7 of lawyers and negotiators in the back here, so if we can 8 get all the negotiators and lawyers to stand up, the GNWT 9 negotiators, the federal negotiators and Dehcho 10 negotiators, could you guys all stand up so we'll know 11 who you are please? The whole crew stands up in the 12 back. 13 These guys are the ones that are going to 14 be negotiating today, so they're here just to sit in on 15 us and listen to -- hear what we're talking about. 16 Again, thanks there guys, give them applause. 17 Okay, just for the record, Berna is not 18 here, so I don't know if we have Providence 19 representatives to -- could somebody introduce -- 20 MS. SOPHIE BONNETROUGE: For Fort 21 Providence delegation we have Elders Phillip and Theresa 22 Elleze and Phillip Elleze and Murina Sabourin. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. If we 24 can now move on. Heidi, did you want to take this 25 portion of the agenda over?
241 Heidi Wiebe...? 2 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Okay, I just wanted to 3 make a few brief announcements. As per the agenda, we'll 4 be breaking for lunch around noon. Lunch and all meals 5 this week are where you find them, there's lots of 6 restaurants in Hay River, so if you've got any questions, 7 you know, come ask one (1) of us or whatever. 8 However, tonight we are planning a 9 community feast, so when we finish discussions here 10 today, stick around, we've got lots of great food and by 11 midafternoon we'll be smelling it. And a drum dance 12 tonight, I've been told. Okay, there's a drum dance 13 tonight as well. So that's what we have for evening 14 activities. 15 As just a reminder, we are transcribing 16 the minutes and discussions here today, and we also are 17 translating, so please speak slowly and try to remember 18 to introduce yourself before you speak, that way we can 19 get the right name with the right comments, it's very 20 important. And I believe that's it for announcements, 21 thank you. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if we can, we'd 23 like to move on to the next item. If you can turn to Tab 24 1 I think it is, in your blue binders. In there there's 25 a draft agenda.
251 Again to the agenda, the section of the 2 review of the agenda, we'll have presenters that will be 3 making presentations throughout the event. And also, 4 again as Heidi mentioned, there is going to be some 5 evening activities. 6 So what we'd like to probably do now is if 7 we can, our time is about 10:30, maybe what we can do is 8 have a quick break, have a quick break and then we'll 9 return and continue with our meeting, and we'll get into 10 the purpose of the meeting's goals and objectives. So 11 let's have a ten (10) minute coffee break and come right 12 back here. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 10:40 a.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 11:00 a.m. 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Can I have people come 18 back to the table please, we'd like to get moving, it is 19 now eleven o'clock, we would like to go until twelve 20 o'clock till lunch, and then come back at 1:30. 21 So again, could people in the back there 22 please return to your chairs so we can begin. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
261 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if we can begin. 2 The next part of our Agenda is The Purpose of the 3 Meeting, Goals and Objectives. 4 What we wanted to do here is to talk about 5 the reason why we are involved in these discussions, and 6 to get feedback to get people's comments on the Dehcho 7 Land Use Plan. We needed people to listen carefully and 8 to take part in this important discussion, so that people 9 can get a good understanding of what the Plan is all 10 about. 11 So with that I'd like to maybe begin, I 12 will do this portion in the language. So could somebody 13 close the doors there to the -- so we can have some 14 privacy here. Okay, thanks. 15 Again, what we'd like to do, there is an 16 Agenda here that's before you. People can take a look at 17 it. It is pretty straight-forward. We have community 18 presentations this afternoon. Tomorrow we'll try to wrap 19 a portion of that up. 20 And then tomorrow afternoon we will get 21 into the business sector presentations, and hear where 22 everybody is at on that. 23 And Thursday we hope to try to get some 24 open discussions feedback from people. This is going to 25 be your chance from anyone and everyone being able to
271 speak on the Land Use Plan. 2 So we have a pretty straight-forward 3 Agenda. So if we can stick to it, I think we will be on 4 track. 5 Again, on the purpose of this meeting, and 6 now I just wanted to do it in the Language. 7 8 (THROUGH SOUTH SLAVEY INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 9 10 With regards to the paper, the Agenda 11 that we're here, what we're going to talk about I think 12 it's very important. And it's very important because 13 with regards to the land, we live on this land here, the 14 Dehcho Land, that is made for us and that's why we're 15 here, to live on it, and to -- to use it, that's the kind 16 of Dene we are. 17 Our Elders, our Elders' Elders, those 18 people are the ones that protected our land, and they're 19 the one that used it. But not too long ago, since the 20 White people came onto our Land and they start living 21 among us, this -- our land has -- they -- they notice 22 that there is a lot of stuff on our land and it's very - 23 - it's very good, so they want to use it too. 24 So, but still, us too, when we're here, 25 put on this Dehcho Land, we loved our land, and for us we
281 say that within our Statement, and our stories behind 2 it, is that the land is our Mother. 3 And that is the reason why we want it -- 4 if we're going to protect it, we need to also protect 5 just like our Mother. And we have to look after her. 6 That way, in return, her too she can protect us and give 7 us and provide us with our -- our survival, wherever 8 there's creeks, wherever there's -- there's water, water 9 tables, lakes, rivers, wherever the people have 10 travelled, all those areas, and all those people that 11 have been around there, they have lived around that area. 12 Today we're here but we sit around a table 13 here, we look at the way we see our land, is that with 14 our own way, how we use our land and it's -- it is ours 15 and we're protecting it. 16 But for us, we can't say that this our 17 land, we can't say it's ours personally, we don't say 18 that, we're just -- we say we're the -- the -- we're the 19 land with the people, because that land is ours. So when 20 we look at ourselves we only look at one thing, we are 21 the Dene and the Dene in -- in explanation is the land 22 and the man together, that's how we look at our land. 23 They can never put them apart, I don't 24 think so, nobody can ever put us apart between our land 25 and us being Dene. That's how we look at it.
291 But the way we see it now, is that on our 2 land here, what's all happening, a lot of things that is 3 underneath, on top, and a lot of people from down south 4 they're looking to make money, they're looking at our 5 land, especially the oil company, the lumber people, they 6 really look at our land and they -- they want to -- 7 they're looking at it now. 8 They know that there's lot of good -- lot 9 of good lumber, lot of good -- lot of good lakes, lot of 10 good water, and so they're really reviewing the Dehcho 11 Region land now for Canada, that's what they've been 12 hearing. This is the last -- this is the last frontier 13 of the land that is being protected, they know that. 14 But for us, we don't have -- we don't have 15 no paper or we don't have no -- no land-claim settle, so 16 we -- how -- how we don't have a paper that's saying that 17 this is going -- this land's going to be used this way, 18 we don't have those things yet. We're still negotiating. 19 And so if we look at our land, we -- we 20 are the ones that are going to hold onto our land, it's 21 up to us to protect it. All the people that have 22 travelled, all our Elders that have travelled in those 23 areas, our forefathers, our Elders, all those that even 24 pass on, that have travelled all over those places in the 25 bush, in the area like the Fish Lake, creeks, in the
301 mountains, wherever the Dene People went, all those 2 areas. 3 They have trails and they have places 4 where they've been. So they -- they've prayed with 5 minds, heart and soul, but still -- but still they -- 6 they loved the land and the bush so they keep that. 7 Some people weren't really, really wealthy 8 with that area, but it was harsh. But in -- in the -- in 9 the olden days was very cold, you remember, how people 10 used to travel. People used to travel to Fish Lake when 11 they used to travel there, they used to have hard time 12 travelling there and -- and he used to said and that's -- 13 it was very harsh living. 14 But still for them it was -- they were 15 happy because they loved their land, so they do these 16 things on their land. They -- they protect it and they 17 think about it, they love it with all their mind, with 18 all of their heart and soul, that's why -- that's how 19 they survive. 20 But today, us here -- we are -- how we 21 look at these things, what they have done, maybe -- maybe 22 we can't follow exactly what they have done, we can't 23 follow exactly which way they went, it's going to be very 24 hard for us. 25 But for as -- as for our land, it -- it
311 kind of -- it's kind of lonesome for us, our land, and we 2 need to use it again and we do use it, but it's just 3 waiting for us, even though it's lonesome for us, and we 4 all move over to communities like this and we don't live 5 in the bush no more. So it's kind of lonesome for us 6 now. 7 And that's what's happened throughout the 8 Dehcho Region. And so that's the reason why like, as for 9 about -- maybe about ten (10) years ago, what you guys 10 told us, some of you are Harvesters, and we talked about 11 it, and we can't go back to the way we lived before, we 12 know that, but somehow we have to protect our land. We 13 need to do that. 14 What you guys said ten (10) years ago, 15 that's exactly is that we love our land and that we -- we 16 use it. And for us it's for the future children and even 17 those people that are working with us, even though 18 they're white people, we have to help each other and 19 support each other, so that we can, when -- when it gets 20 pretty hard we can ask the Elders for the question, to 21 give us an answer and that's how they give us answers, to 22 protect our land, and that's how they -- that's why they 23 sit there. 24 And they told us how to protect our land, 25 they showed us, they gave it to us. So today, today
321 whose all working with us here, there is -- there is 2 pretty well everybody, the whole leadership's involved. 3 When we look at this Land Use Plan, we're 4 going to have to make one (1) statement that comes out of 5 there, and we're going to have to put a statement on 6 there to say this is what we look at on our Land Use 7 Plan, especially with the Harvesters. 8 And we need -- we need to know how they 9 were in the bush and so we went around asking questions 10 with regards to how you've trapped and where's your area. 11 And you guys had marked it on the map, where there's 12 burial ground, where there's herbal medicine and where 13 people really used to gather and used to -- and used to 14 make camps; we know all these areas, and you guys put it 15 all on a map and you guys told us to do it and we did 16 that. 17 Some places where there's creek, like 18 there's Beaver Lake and mountain, islands and all this, 19 you guys had a name and done a name and we did all that 20 too. And you guys told us to do that. 21 So there's been a lot of work done on this 22 Land Use Plan, and now it's about ten (10) years since we 23 started. You guys told us to do these things, so we've 24 been doing that. Now it's all -- it's all put on the map 25 and we did all the information and put it on a map too.
331 The Government, they sat with us too. The 2 Territorial Government too sat with us. And so there was 3 three (3) of us, we all sat together and we helped each 4 other and made this map, and we did that. 5 What else we're saying is that what you 6 guys told us is that how big of a land we live on within 7 the Dehcho is for all of the Dehcho region to use. And 8 for everybody to use and somehow once we settled our land 9 claim and maybe think that we're going to use the land, 10 we don't want to let go of some of the things that we 11 cherish, because we're going to need -- we're going -- 12 we're going be using it with other people that live on 13 our land with us, that's what the elders said, and so 14 don't let go of your land, just hold it all together as 15 one (1), don't cut it up or anything. 16 So that's what they gave -- they told us, 17 and that's what we're doing right now. 18 So this land that the Dehcho Region -- the 19 region we'll call it the land. We -- we have a paper -- 20 we are going to have to have paper to protect that. How 21 big of an area we live in as a region; if we do that and 22 put the statements in there how we're going to use it and 23 I would do that today, all the people that are following 24 us, they're going to use that, and that's going to be 25 protecting them for the future.
341 So these are the reasons why -- these are 2 the reason why like we -- he said the reason why, like, 3 we hold onto this land. If we do that, then once we make 4 that statement it's going to go from Wrigley to Hay River 5 here, all this area, like even that -- the Edehzhie, the 6 yard, all this land mass we're going to be using. 7 And this big land that we're going to use 8 here, we're going to hold onto it. We're going to -- 9 it's going to be up to us how we're going to use it, and 10 we're going to have to put them all on paper and record 11 it. So up until today that's what we've been doing, 12 we've been recording it. 13 Many times we went to community, many 14 times we visited community, we question -- ask you 15 questions, and we ask you questions and told you, said 16 you guys so and so have to work on the map; we did that. 17 We followed what -- so now is it good for you? Do you 18 guys feel it's good? Did we forget something, or if we 19 did -- if we did, then we need to ask you that now. 20 We know that you guys know your land very 21 good, because you're Harvesters, maybe we forgot 22 something, you guys should tell us now. And so we're 23 going to say thank you to you for helping us to make this 24 -- it's not finished yet, we've still got a lot of things 25 that has to be done before we finally say it was
351 finished, you know. 2 So that's the reason why we're here in Hay 3 River Reserve and Chief Roy Fabian's land. We got 4 together -- so about last year, about this time I think, 5 we had a -- we had a meeting with regards to our -- the 6 land, Land Use Planning. 7 What is saying that is that everything on 8 our land, what is on there, it's all going -- it's all 9 going to be recorded, you said what's on there, 10 underneath, on top, and you guys did that. We did that 11 and we shared it with you, not only us, but the people 12 that are living among us, the white people that are 13 living among us, even though they're oil company, even 14 though they're lumber people, and even people that are 15 mining, they live among us, even the white people that 16 goes around in summer, we share it all with them. 17 When -- when we got a meeting here we 18 questioned them -- we questioned them about some of these 19 things and lot of the things have been recorded giving us 20 feedback on what they say, what they say, how they're 21 going to use it and all this. 22 And these are the things that we use and 23 we put it in the Dehcho -- Dehcho big binder so before 24 that we never had that -- that thick binder but today now 25 we have more and all the stuff that you guys wrote on us
361 Harvesters we put in -- we put in there so it's getting 2 thicker. There's a lot -- there's a lot of things that's 3 included in there so now when we get together here again 4 we need to look at those things again. 5 We need to question you and you sit around 6 the table here, you as leadership, elders, youth, 7 Harvesters, we need to know and we need you to listen to 8 these people that are making presentations to you with 9 regards to what they're saying, with regards to what -- 10 what they're going to be saying. There'll be a lot of -- 11 there'll be translation here for you and they'll tell you 12 exactly what it is so listen to them clearly. 13 And then -- and then after that, after you 14 think about what's been said talk among yourselves and 15 maybe you want to bring up an issue with regard to that 16 concern. Say it and just when we give you -- and they 17 give you a statement or make presentations don't just go 18 back home and just think about it. No, this is where we 19 need to hear you. This is what you guys done and we need 20 -- we need to hear your response as to how it was made up 21 to now with regards to land use planning. 22 And this is what we're going to bring to 23 you and you guys got to give us feedback that we did a 24 good job. If I said good, if it's good say it is. If 25 it's not very good we need to hear your feedback with
371 regards to that. Maybe some of the things that we forgot 2 even that needs to be added, we need -- we need to -- it 3 has to be added and it's not in there, we need to hear 4 that too also. 5 You as Elders that are sitting among here 6 with us too, we as a young people, a new generation, the 7 next generation we follow paper; that's all we know but 8 you Elders, you survived it. You lived it and you know 9 about the land and so you share the -- the land story 10 with us. 11 So we need your input also, you as Elders. 12 We need to question you. We need to ask you. We need to 13 ask for your -- your support. We need to ask for your 14 information. How is it this land is...is it everything 15 involved in the paper? Is it there that we want it or 16 did -- what if we forgot something? Then -- then we 17 can't grab it and if we can't grab it then we need to 18 hear you guys talk about it and if you talk about it then 19 we can grab it. That's what it looks like right now. 20 When we talk about something like this, 21 you're sitting around a table like this, you talk about 22 something very important that you -- we get together like 23 this we're going to talk about and somebody's coming to 24 you and you're kind of confused and not sure wherever 25 there's going to be a meeting even though you're coming
381 to a meeting even though it's getting very hard, still 2 there is something that is -- that's an issue for you. 3 You have to address it. 4 That's the reason why we did that fire 5 ceremony to clear our mind, not to be afraid to talk 6 about what you want and -- and also bring something good 7 to us. Maybe you guys should share it with us too; that 8 would be good too. 9 That way you feel comfortable and that way 10 maybe some woman's here. We respect you a lot, you as 11 woman, you as mothers, you as Elders. We respect you 12 guys. You sit here among us. We ask you and -- and 13 we're asking you because we know you know some things and 14 -- and in a really Dene way you guys are like our 15 mothers. 16 So you as a -- as a woman that are here we 17 need to ask you to help us with regards to protecting our 18 land. We know that you guys hold onto something very 19 strong and so when we talk about these things like this 20 you guys are like our mother and when we talk about 21 Mother Earth you know what we're relating to. You both 22 are the same like the -- with Mother Earth. You're as 23 one (1). 24 So that's -- that's the reason why if 25 you've got something maybe you should share it with us.
391 That would be good. This -- this paper is a very 2 powerful thing that we're going to have to work on, this 3 land use planning. 4 It's very powerful because since we 5 started up to when we started there were a lot of Elders 6 used to come and sit with us and talk with regards to our 7 land use plan and how we're going to make it. They said, 8 yes, yes, do it that way. 9 And they took out -- we took out all the 10 statements from the Elders and put it on paper. Then it 11 would be very strong with our language. It goes with the 12 paper, land use planning. 13 Now we look back. We know where -- where 14 the people are buried. We know where there's like Mary 15 Cazon, Gabe Cazon, Mr. Sassy (phonetic) and from -- 16 Elders from Wrigley, all this even from here in Hay 17 River, all the Elders like Mitch Landry -- Providence, 18 all those if you look among them. You know? 19 And where -- where they knew all where the 20 land was and they had protected the land and help us 21 protect it because they give us their information. Even 22 though they were sick they still come to a meeting and 23 give us this information. They knew that some day we're 24 going to use it and we're asking them to help us. They 25 come to these meetings even though they -- even though a
401 small statement is very important for us and they tell us 2 these things. 3 And we put them and we record it. These 4 are the people that have passed on but still we have 5 their words with us to protect our Mother Earth. 6 So you sitting here today, you too, we're 7 going to have to ask you -- going to have to ask you to 8 help us, continue helping us. All of you that sit here, 9 you have something that's very powerful and that way, 10 that way we all help each other and we put it together 11 even though it's put together from different communities 12 it will be one (1) -- one (1) strong statement. 13 The people that are here that are 14 recording these things, them too they're working with us. 15 Those people that are working with us here, them too they 16 sit with me. I know that we all work for you and people 17 that are in the back there they -- they do like George 18 Erasmus and them and Chris and them. They are our 19 negotiators, Sam, Ria. Them too. 20 They -- they're protecting our land and 21 they're the ones who are really watching what we're 22 saying here, what we're going to have to do; how we're 23 going to fix it. That's what we're looking at. We're 24 looking at. They want to hear what we're going -- the 25 information we're going to share here. That's the reason
411 why we're here and that's the reason why we sit around a 2 table. 3 What is the head of us here? Is that -- 4 it looks very good but we need to -- we need to help each 5 other. We need to work, do some work on it and then make 6 it -- and start fixing it. And so that's what we look at 7 today. Don't be afraid. Don't hold back to what you're 8 going to say and it's something very good that we're 9 going towards. We should be happy that we're achieving 10 something. 11 So today that's what you should look at. 12 That's the reason why it's so nice outside. Look at the 13 sunshine and you know do it really good and don't be 14 afraid. This is your land. This is your land. Don't 15 forget. If you love your land say so and talk to it with 16 regards to how you're going to protect it and how you 17 love the land and talk really good with it with regards 18 to the issue that comes out. 19 Why we're saying this is because not too 20 long ago we have this people that are sitting in Ottawa 21 that are government. They had an election and the way 22 it's going is that we don't know how they're going to be 23 working and now -- now they -- now they -- they have 24 different government. How they're going to work and 25 today within the Dehcho land how they're going to see it
421 we really don't know yet. 2 So not only that but -- but it seems like 3 they might just push that pipeline right through. And so 4 those are things that we've got to prepare for -- for 5 that because it's something very big for them but for us 6 this is our land. This is the one (1) they're going to 7 have to fix with, with us because it's on our land and 8 that's what we're thinking about right now. 9 So -- so we can't just -- if they're going 10 to push that pipeline, if they're going to start working 11 on a pipeline and bringing maps to us and we're not 12 finished with this then it's going to be very hard for 13 us. So that's the reason why we are sitting here around 14 the table. 15 This is very important land use planning 16 that's -- that's ahead of us here. That's going to 17 protect us how we're going to use our land. And 18 everything's going to be recorded in there. And -- and 19 what you see here on this land here even then they're 20 going to have to follow what we -- what we do when we 21 finish then. Then they're going to use this -- they're 22 going to use that -- how they're going to be working 23 around that area. 24 So that's why I tell you, that's why I 25 tell you if you're going to talk, talk. Talk on behalf
431 of your own land and what you're thinking, say so. Share 2 it with us. And also if you -- if you're going to talk 3 we have our Chiefs here with us and I sit here and I'll 4 be -- I'll be -- if it's hard for you to talk then you 5 talk to your Chief and then if not then you talk to me 6 and then I'll introduce you and somehow I can't give you 7 a few time to -- to give you some time to talk with 8 regards to the issues. 9 So I'll just say that much for now. So if 10 you're going to talk, don't hold back and share what's on 11 your mind and what is there ahead of you. Talk with 12 regards to the issue. 13 So I'll say that much for now. Thank you. 14 15 (INTERPRETATION CONCLUDED) 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: So we'll move on with 18 our agenda. We'd like to turn this over to the 19 Executive Director Heidi Wiebe, who will do the 20 presentation. I think we're moving into the overview of 21 the revised Dehcho Land Use Plan. So, Heidi, I think if 22 you can, Heidi will be going up to the projector, to the 23 screen to make the presentation. 24 25 PRESENTATION BY MS. HEIDI WIEBE:
441 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: For the next little 2 while I'll be showing the presentation on here so you 3 might want to move your seats so that you can see. 4 A copy of the presentation is in Tab 3 of 5 your binders if you want to follow along, especially for 6 those at the back who maybe can't read the smaller print. 7 8 (BRIEF PAUSE) 9 10 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Okay. What I'm going 11 to do is a new variation on the presentation that we've 12 been doing in the communities and different areas over 13 the last two (2) months. As you know we've gone and done 14 about two (2) and three (3) hour presentations. I'm 15 hoping this one's a lot shorter. 16 So we're going to talk about the purpose 17 of the meeting today, a very quick introduction and 18 background to the plan and the reports. And I'll go 19 through some of the new sections and today I want to 20 present an overview of the entire plan but very briefly. 21 The earlier presentations focussed mainly 22 on the changes. So we'll talk about the zoning and the 23 terms, implementation and then for today's presentation 24 we have an example Permit Application and how the plan 25 could be implemented with a new application and then
451 revisions, exceptions, amendments and final steps. 2 So the presentation is really to remind 3 you what's in the plan to focus our comments and 4 discussion over the next couple of days. I might be 5 having a technical issue. One (1) second. 6 All right. The purpose of the regional 7 forum that we're at is to review -- review the revised 8 draft plan; that's the one that was released in November. 9 This is the draft that we've been presenting to you in 10 your communities since the end of November. We requested 11 comments on the plan by January 27th, and these are the 12 comments that you'll be presenting over the next few days 13 to us. 14 There was a lot of really good suggestions 15 made by participants at those meetings over the last few 16 months. We have not yet made those changes, what you're 17 seeing is the same plan you saw over the last few months. 18 Those changes will be made after the regional forum, when 19 we've had all of the comments submitted to us. 20 And really the regional forum is your 21 opportunity to present your comments and discuss the plan 22 and give us guidance in future revisions before we submit 23 the plan for approval. 24 So as a quick introduction and background 25 we wanted to emphasize some of the history of the
461 Planning Committee, and what we've done over the last 2 three (3) or four (4) years. 3 We were established in 2001 under the 4 Interim Measures Agreement. Again, the purpose of the 5 plan is to promote the social, cultural and economic well 6 being of residents and communities in the Dehcho 7 Territory, having regard to the interests of all 8 Canadians. 9 The parties to the IMA and as represented 10 on the committee, are Dehcho First Nations, GNWT, and 11 Canada. And over the last three (3) or four (4) years 12 we've conducted extensive research, consultations, 13 mapping with communities and delegates and then responded 14 to your questions and comments and feedback. 15 As a quick summary, we've been at this for 16 about four (4) years now. Over that time we've conducted 17 over a hundred (100) different meetings with communities 18 and planning partners throughout the region and beyond 19 the region. 20 That includes ten (10) initial mapping 21 sessions with the original -- with the communities, so 22 one (1) in each community. Since then we've gone back to 23 thirty-three (33) or had thirty-three (33) different 24 meetings in communities to adjust and revise the zoning. 25 We've had two (2) regional forums now.
471 We've participated in almost every leadership meeting and 2 Kakisa assembly since we started the office in 2002. 3 We've had a couple special workshops, one (1) was on 4 wildlife harvesting data, that we ran with biologists and 5 harvesters, and again, the Dene Nahodhe Workshop held a 6 couple years ago to discuss the cultural foundation of 7 the land use plan, as well as attending various other 8 meetings and workshops throughout the North. 9 We've conducted over twenty (20) different 10 research projects, looking at everything from the 11 resource potential of the region, to the conservation 12 values. This is now the third draft plan, the first one 13 (1) was started with the working draft, which is really 14 the map and the key policy recommendations, followed by 15 the June draft, which is the first full draft plan, and 16 the November draft, and we anticipate having one (1) more 17 draft. 18 We've had over one hundred and seven (107) 19 comments submitted on the planning process up to this 20 point by, you know, people such as yourselves, and when 21 taken into distinctive comments that we've had to respond 22 to, we've had over seven hundred (700) comments, that 23 have led to the plan the way it is now. So you have a 24 lot to be proud of in terms of the level of participation 25 that you have provided in this process.
481 So as a reminder, the plan now consists of 2 two (2) different documents. If you require copies we do 3 have a few extra copies here on the side table, so feel 4 free to grab one (1). 5 The plan is the thin one (1), and this is 6 what gets submitted for approval, it has three (3) 7 chapters, an introduction, the vision, zoning and terms 8 which are reflected on the map at the back of the room 9 and the terms poster at the side of the room. 10 And the plan implementation and approval, 11 which is Chapter 3. And this is what has been summarized 12 in a roughly ten (10) page, plain language summary, which 13 is usually in the front of the plan. 14 We also have a background report, so all 15 of the information that supports and explains the plan, 16 but is not subject to approval is in the larger 17 background report, six (6) chapters, introduction, very 18 brief. 19 Chapter 2 is the people, land and 20 resources. And there you can see the results of most of 21 the research we've done over the last three (3) years, if 22 you want to know, you know, where the resources are, we 23 have maps. If you want to know the community size, the 24 education, the social stuff, that's all in Chapter 2 as 25 well.
491 Chapter 3 is our understanding of the 2 current regulatory and policy framework into which the 3 plan would be implemented. 4 Chapter 4 is a description of our process 5 and methods used in plan development as well as a 6 discussion of the economic and cumulative effects 7 modelling we've done. 8 Chapter 5 are the zone by zone 9 descriptions. So similar to what you see on the posters 10 on the wall what are the permitted uses, what are the 11 special terms, a map of the zone, what are the 12 conservation values and resource potential? So all of 13 that's in Chapter V. 14 And again, Chapter 6 is plan assessment. 15 What are the impacts of implementing this plan? What 16 does it do for conservation goals in the region? What 17 does it do for resource potential in the region? What 18 does it do for economic values? 19 And as I mentioned, those seven hundred 20 (700) comments and responses, all of the comments and 21 responses from the last round are at the very back of the 22 background documents. So they're there for your 23 reference. 24 As we presented in the earlier community 25 sessions, we have a new section in this draft of the
501 plan. Many of you will have heard this information if 2 you attended the community meetings. So I'm going to run 3 through this fairly quickly. 4 Again, the plan applies to the Dehcho 5 territory but outside of community boundaries. And those 6 are generally shown in bright pink or red on the maps and 7 outside Nahanni Nation Park Reserve. 8 Again, those areas are currently managed 9 by other jurisdictions and government departments. 10 The purpose of the plan is to promote the 11 social, cultural and economic well being of residents and 12 communities having regard to the interest of all 13 Canadians. That's our mandate and there's a very strong 14 social and cultural component to that. And you can see 15 that reflected in the plan. 16 The legal context. And this is very 17 important. The plan has to be consistent with the Dehcho 18 First Nations Interim Measures Agreement as well as 19 existing legislation, i.e. We have to be able to 20 implement the plan with existing processes. 21 There will not be any changes to laws or 22 legislation or -- or Acts before a final agreement. So 23 it has to work now. 24 Into our zoning we identify areas where 25 different land uses are permitted. Again, this doesn't
511 mean implied community support for a project. It just 2 means that a project application for that area could 3 proceed to the existing regulatory system. 4 Through the zoning we manage five (5) land 5 uses. Again, agriculture, forestry, tourism, mining and 6 oil and gas. Some of the terms reference other land uses 7 and provide more direction. 8 But if we don't discuss a specific land 9 use, it just means you proceed to the regulatory system 10 if a new application comes up. 11 Traditional land use and occupancy. 12 Nothing in the plan affects your right to use the land to 13 harvest and hunt and trap wherever you currently do. 14 We're not mapping that. We're not regulating that. 15 Existing rights, dispositions, 16 authorizations and activities. Basically if it's a land 17 use or a right that exists to the land right now, it will 18 continue to exist once the plan is approved. 19 So again, any existing uses would not be 20 subject to either the terms or the zoning of the land use 21 plan. If they're already there, they will continue to 22 stay there. 23 New activities. So the plan only applies 24 to new activities which begin after the plan is approved. 25 So again, if it's there, it stays there, were meant to
521 guide new development or new land use activities. 2 The plan only applies to non traditional 3 commercial uses. So again, you have to be applying for a 4 permit or a license or authorization before you trigger 5 the plan. And we're not trying to affect domestic uses 6 such as cutting timber for fuel wood or -- or that sort 7 of thing, or fur harvesting. So looking at really 8 commercial uses. 9 Emergency use. The plan does not block 10 anything required to address or deal with emergencies. 11 Research permits. Currently the plan does 12 not apply to scientific research permits. It's a whole 13 body of permits that we have no further guidance on at 14 this point. 15 Land users. The plan applies equally to 16 all land users. And we've, you know, taken great lengths 17 to explain this whether it's Aboriginal or non- 18 Aboriginal, whether it's resident or non resident. If 19 the zoning map suggests that an area is open for 20 development, anybody could submit an application to 21 develop that area. 22 If an area is closed to that type of 23 development, no one could submit an application to 24 develop there or it would be sent back. 25 And finally audience, the language in the
531 plan is somewhat complex and technical and it's usually 2 directing regulatory authorities to do something. They 3 are the ones who will implement the land use plan. So 4 the language is written to give them direction. 5 But of course anybody who is potentially 6 using the land should review it and read it and 7 understand it because you are the users who are affected 8 ultimately. 9 As we discussed during our presentations, 10 we currently have five (5) different types of land use 11 zones. We have conservation zones which are the 12 delineate areas for important conservation whether it be 13 traditional or ecological values. 14 Currently they cover about 40 percent of 15 the Dehcho territory. And they restrict oil and gas, 16 mining, forestry and agriculture. And in two (2) cases 17 they also restrict tourism based on community input. 18 We have a new type of zone called 'The 19 Protected Area Strategy Zone'. Currently this is only 20 Edehzhie and it recognizes that Edehzhie has already been 21 withdrawn under the Protected Area Strategy. It is 22 moving through a different process and would eventually 23 be managed under different jurisdiction. 24 In this case, the Canadian Wildlife 25 Society or CWS, yeah. Canadian Wildlife Service, sorry.
541 So that will eventually be managed by -- by that 2 organization. 3 We have special management zones. And 4 these are areas where generally we have high values for - 5 - for conservation overlapping areas that are important 6 for development so we want to have different terms to 7 guide development while still permitting some types of 8 development to occur. 9 Generally these zones have specific 10 objectives. Some of them are to promote certain types of 11 development. Some of them are to protect certain 12 conservation values. So there's a range of ways that we 13 do that. And they currently cover about 24 percent of 14 the region. 15 We have general use zones which allow all 16 five (5) types of development subject to existing 17 regulatory processes. And they cover about 23 percent of 18 the region. 19 And then we have the special 20 infrastructure corridor which is a corridor that 21 delineates the McKenzie Valley Pipeline, the current 22 known routing. 23 It overlays or sits on top of the other 24 zones and basically defines the appropriate uses related 25 to the pipeline in that corridor. And it covers less
551 than 1 percent of the zone of the region. 2 So these are the maps, the zone map. So 3 all of the green areas are the conservation zones. 4 Edehzhie is the PAS zone. It's covered slightly 5 different. 6 The special management zones are in purple 7 and the general use zones are all of the white areas 8 remaining. Is that focussed? It looks fuzzy but -- oh, 9 okay. 10 Rather than going through all thirty (30) 11 zones individually, I wanted to give you a regional or 12 sub regional picture this time. 13 So looking at the north, you can see 14 Pehdzeh Ki Deh is the dominant zone in this region. This 15 is going through the Protected Area Strategy and was put 16 forth by the community of Wrigley. 17 During the last round of revisions, they 18 added a new special management zone to allow the 19 harvesting of timber in that area. 20 This network of rivers mostly the route in 21 the North Nahanni and other smaller rivers is another 22 conservation zone meant specifically to protect the 23 values along those river systems. 24 Zones 27 and 25 allow for special 25 management. They're quite important for various types of
561 wildlife, sheep and grizzly bears being really important 2 in some of those and requiring special management because 3 of their sensitivity. 4 As we move further east, the dominant zone 5 is Edehzhie which of course if moving through the 6 Protected Area Strategy and it's quite well advanced in 7 that process. 8 We have Birch Lake which was put forward 9 as a conservation zone by the community of Fort 10 Providence, a very important traditional trapping and 11 harvesting area and culturally important. 12 Zone 24 is this special management area 13 over there. Again, very important for wildlife. A lot 14 of -- for a lot of people in that area. But again, 15 there's some significant resource potential that we 16 wanted to ensure had the opportunity to go forward. 17 Out of there we've got the small Zone 17 18 or Moraine Point and islands. Incredibly important 19 migratory bird habitat with some whooping cranes. I 20 believe non breeding pairs in that area. 21 Similarly the Falaise Lake area in here 22 was put into a conservation zone for wood bison habitat 23 and a variety of other species. 24 We move down into the Great Slave Lake 25 area and one of our key values that was a consideration
571 in the zoning development was the protection of water. 2 And of course, this part of Great Slave Lake is really 3 important for subsistence harvesting as is a lot of the 4 McKenzie River for different fish spawning and habitat 5 and for cultural values. 6 As we go further down, you see the 7 northern tip of the Kakisa and Tathlina area and the 8 Muskeg River area or creek. 9 Following the McKenzie River, we move into 10 Jean Marie's special management zone. Again, strong 11 conservation values there but a very strong well 12 developed interest in forestry in that area. And so they 13 have some special management terms geared to promote 14 forestry and still have sustainable practices. 15 And then we move into Fort Simpson. Got 16 Zone 23 over here for special management. Again, 17 allowing for similar forestry development while the more 18 important rivers and water bodies in the area are in the 19 conservation zone to promote tourism and traditional 20 values and harvesting. 21 Moving further southeast. So we are at 22 Great Slave Lake over here. Zone 15 in this corner is 23 being put forth and currently under revisions with Hay 24 River Reserve. Important for their traditional use 25 especially around the Buffalo Lake Water Shed.
581 The Hay River corridor. Again there's 2 some strong traditional values along that corridor, but 3 it's a well known and well used access corridor so there 4 are certainly other considerations in that area. 5 The rest of the Kakisa and Tathlina zone 6 and down below you see the eastern edge of the Cameron 7 Hills Zone 21. Very high potential for oil and gas in 8 this region. Significant development over the last 9 number of years. 10 In the southwest region, we move into 11 Sambaa K'e which is also being put through the Protective 12 Area Strategy. The community of Trout Lake or Sambaa K'e 13 has been pursuing this area very rapidly for the last 14 number of years and it's made great strides through that 15 process. 16 Zone 22 in the middle, is special 17 management. The community has a strong interest in 18 promoting oil and gas developments within that area. 19 It's -- south of that is the continuation 20 of Zone 21 which is again for promoting oil and gas and 21 with special management. And it goes right up to this 22 area. 23 And then right next to that is Zone 26 24 which is again an important area for oil and gas 25 development. Within that, we have a small -- a few small
591 conservation areas that were identified on the basis of 2 important traditional water bodies like Bovie Lake, 3 Fisherman Lake, Claraday (phonetic), some other areas of 4 importance to community members. 5 And as we move further north here's the 6 bottom edges of Zone 26 and 21, we've got Zone 20 for 7 Nahanni Butte special management in that area for again, 8 forestry and tourism. 9 And then that brings us into Zone 6 which 10 is the Greater Nahanni Ecosystem and of course being put 11 forward for park expansion in combination with the Dehcho 12 First Nations and Parks Canada under the Memorandum of 13 Understanding. 14 So that is it for the zones. I hope that 15 gives you a refresher of what the plan is there. We have 16 a number of terms so I'm going to go through these very 17 quickly and we may have to stop halfway through this for 18 a lunch break and we might continue again later. But 19 I'll go for a few more minutes. 20 Again we have three (3) different types of 21 terms in the plan. The first type is a conformity 22 requirement and that is any term that sets a condition 23 for development. So if a new application comes in and 24 somebody has to check if it meets one of these terms, 25 it's a conformity requirement.
601 We also outline a number of actions and 2 these are things like new research or new meetings or, 3 you know, things that people have to take action on and 4 there are a requirement in the plan. And they're 5 directed generally at the three (3) parties. So Dehcho 6 First Nations, GNWT, or Canada, or various regulatory 7 authorities and they include a variety of items. 8 And then we also have recommendations in 9 the plan and these set different considerations that we 10 hope people will take into account as land users in 11 proceeding with their activities. But they're not 12 legally binding. They're not required. 13 But they do provide a lot of direction as 14 to community expectations for the region and community 15 values which are very important. 16 I've got the terms divided in this 17 presentation according to, you know, key categories. So 18 the first are traditional and cultural terms that are -- 19 what are the different terms that try to promote these 20 types of values. 21 So the first was with respect to the Dene 22 laws, values and principles and we outlined what those 23 were; things like fire feeding ceremonies, showing 24 respect for the land, sharing resources and revenues, 25 taking only what you need and then do not waste. So
611 things like using best practices. 2 Use and recognition of traditional 3 knowledge. So we have recommendations in the plan to 4 integrate traditional and cultural knowledge into all 5 aspects of activities and decision making and promoting 6 the value of traditional and cultural knowledge by 7 providing more opportunities for people who have these 8 skills and this knowledge to be used in -- in different 9 situations. 10 For culture and language we -- we have a 11 recommendation to create more opportunities for Dene 12 cultural and linguistic or language experiences. People 13 recognize that there's many areas where the language is 14 being lost and not passed on so we want to promote that, 15 the development of it. 16 The use of guides and monitors suggest 17 that Dehcho First Nations will outline contract terms and 18 develop a list for potential project guides and monitors 19 so that when companies are looking to use your guides and 20 monitors, you're prepared for that. 21 And we're requesting or recommending that 22 developers notify the First Nations at least ten (10) 23 days in advance so that you can be aware of the 24 activities happening on the land. 25 The use of recognition of traditional and
621 cultural knowledge. One of our requirements in the plan 2 is for new applications to document tradition knowledge 3 and scientific information that's relevant to new project 4 applications. 5 The protection of significant traditional 6 land use and occupancy sites. People have used the land 7 for a long time, they don't want to have, you know, their 8 cabins or your trap slines or your other activities 9 directly affected if it can be avoided. 10 So we're asking proponents or new 11 developers to assess the impacts of their projects on 12 these locations that are important to you and to try and 13 come up with ways to avoid or to mitigate those impacts. 14 Plant gathering areas. Another area 15 that's very important. We want to make sure that if 16 there's areas that you use for plant gathering, whether 17 it be for berries or medicinal plants that again, those 18 are avoided so the community can have continued access to 19 these important plants for your use. 20 And it also suggest that again, the 21 communities would be responsible for developing that list 22 of plants and helping developers identify where those 23 areas are through -- through new work. 24 Traditional economy. We recognize that 25 people use the land a lot but we don't know how much. We
631 don't know the benefits that you get from the land in 2 terms of food values or clothing or materials or culture. 3 So we're -- we're asking for government to study that and 4 develop an understanding or a better quantification of 5 how much value you get from the land. 6 Use of traditional materials. This is 7 directed at Decho First Nations. There was concerns 8 about people misusing or wasting in some cases 9 traditional materials. So we hope that Decho First 10 Nations can help educate people on all the different ways 11 that the parts can be used and that if they're not being 12 used to bring them back to the communities so nothing's 13 wasted. 14 Visual quality. Again, working with the 15 communities to ensure that new impacts are minimized in 16 terms of where they're visible from. And if we can, you 17 know, move the locations somewhat to reduce those impacts 18 then -- then that's to be recommended. 19 General hunting license areas. This term 20 has gone through some changes. We initially had hoped to 21 set aside Zone 18 which is the northwest corner rivers as 22 a special harvesting area for Dehcho First Nations 23 because it's so important to the surrounding communities; 24 that has been rejected in recent rounds of revisions and 25 we're now suggesting that that's an area to be negotiated
641 through the Dehcho process. 2 We have a number of terms that are meant 3 to guide sustainable development of the region. The land 4 use zones is the first of those. Ao in working with 5 communities and other planning partners we've identified 6 what areas are appropriate for development and which ones 7 are not. 8 Again we talked about existing rights and 9 dispositions. If it's already there, it will continue to 10 be there and we have, you know, some language around that 11 in the plan. 12 Contaminated sites. We know there's, you 13 know, a lot of past areas that have not been 14 appropriately cleaned up and nothing in the plan will 15 block future cleanup of these areas. 16 Access is an important consideration when 17 you're doing regional planning. You want to certainly 18 promote opening of access but you want to do it very 19 wisely so you're not building more roads and access than 20 you need and creating more wildlife impacts than 21 required. 22 So we have, you know, a requirement for 23 new applications for access to do routing and planning 24 studies with the communities and other planning partners 25 and to identify, you know, the most environmentally
651 sensitive route through areas. 2 Water monitoring and management. There 3 are a few terms geared at promoting, you know, healthy 4 water supplies. Regulatory authorities will manage 5 activities to ensure or -- and to -- and to ensure best 6 practices for drinking water quality and this is in areas 7 around drinking water areas for communities. 8 Developers will minimize the use or loss 9 of water for industrial processes, again through the use 10 of best practices, and -- and such and ensure no net loss 11 of wetlands and shorelines which are especially important 12 areas. 13 And finally there's a -- the term says 14 that there will be no new hydro electric development that 15 involves flooding or impoundment of water permitted on 16 the Mackenzie and the Liard Rivers as per former DFN 17 resolutions on the subject. But run-of-the-river which 18 is a very small scale hydro that doesn't crea -- involve 19 dams would be allowed outside of conservation areas with 20 the support of the First Nations. 21 Minor infrastructure. These are for 22 things like navigation markers and -- and smaller minor 23 infrastructure type applications. These would be 24 permitted in general use and special management zones. 25 And should there be a need for new ones in conservation
661 areas then the committee would consider looking at 2 exceptions for these. 3 Granular resources. This is your gravel 4 development and such. There's language on this that was 5 negotiated in the Interim Measures Agreement and 6 identifies four (4) conditions under which gravel would 7 be extracted in -- in withdrawn land. 8 So we've applied that to the conservation 9 zones. And it says new gravel sources could be opened if 10 they're already open, if there are new sources of 11 material required for community construction, if they 12 have the consent of the First Nation, or if there's no 13 alternative; then if they've consulted with the First 14 Nation then a new source could be opened. 15 Air monitoring and management. A lot of 16 people are concerned about the potential impacts to air 17 quality with increasing levels of development. Again 18 there's -- we've taken a number of different industry 19 standards with respect to air quality and recommended 20 that developers use and meet these standards. 21 As they are not legally enforceable or 22 this is not a legal requirement at the moment we have 23 another action to direct government to work with First 24 Nations to ensure that this gap in the regulatory system 25 can be filled.
671 Community infrastructure and expansion. 2 As I mentioned, the plan currently applies outside of 3 existing municipal areas and they're shown on all of the 4 maps. We recognize that communities have to grow and 5 expand and in some cases there's discussion of 6 relocation. And should that be required then we have to 7 make sure that those changes are addressed through the 8 land use planning process and that expansion's also done 9 appropriately in consideration of the surrounding values 10 of the current municipal areas. 11 So the Committee would -- would look at 12 exceptions in that area and work with the community to 13 ensure expansion is done appropriately. 14 Commercial fishing is only permitted on 15 lakes where supported by Dehcho First Nations. The 16 exception here is Great Slave Lake. As you know, that's 17 being managed by the Great Slave Lake Advisory Committee 18 which DFN I think has a member on. But maybe not. 19 But there's some issues there, so we have 20 suggested that Dehcho First Nations needs to meet 21 directly with the Great Slave Lake Advisory Committee to 22 resolve those concerns. 23 Re-vegetation. Quite often after 24 development goes through they need to ensure that the 25 area is re-vegetated and that grass or trees are coming
681 back. But we want to make sure that when they're re- 2 seeding with grasses, that they're not bringing in 3 species that don't belong here. So we have a requirement 4 to make sure they use seed mixes which do not include 5 invasive species. 6 Non-exclusive geophysical surveys. These 7 are basically seismic lines. These long two-dimensional 8 seismic lines. Again, this reflects language that was 9 negotiated in the Interim Measures Agreement, that there 10 would be these areas that would be -- remain open to 11 seismic development which will allow government and other 12 people to understand or get a clearer picture of where 13 the mineral and oil and gas resources are underneath the 14 surface. 15 So there was a map put in the plan 16 reflecting what was negotiated in the IMA to ensure that 17 these areas were accessible for this type of seismic. 18 And the McKenzie Valley Pipeline. Again, 19 this sets terms that will guide pipeline development 20 within that special infrastructure corridor with a 21 recommendation for developers to recognize and harmonize 22 their activities with the values and the intent of the 23 underlying zones wherever possible. 24 We have one (1) term directed straight at 25 mining and that's for reclamation security. And it sets
691 a number of different conditions for the posting of 2 security and reclamation plans. 3 We have some terms directed at forestry. 4 The first is community based forest management. Again, 5 back in the Interim Measures Agreement there was -- okay. 6 The IMA negotiated a bunch of different 7 terms around forestry management. And through subsequent 8 revisions, we've just come back to that; one of which 9 says there will be no new forest authorizations in the 10 region without the support of the First Nation but it 11 does include some exceptions to that. 12 Timber recovery. It says that developers 13 will minimize the loss and waste of timber and will 14 notify the First Nations of opportunities for timber 15 recovery wherever possible. 16 We have prevention measures and salvage 17 logging which allows for forest management activities to 18 either prevent forest fires or insect disease or to 19 recoup or salvage timber after a fire or insect has gone 20 through, again with the consent of the First Nation. 21 And finally, we have general silva 22 (phonetic) cultural practices which directs the 23 Government to work with First Nations to identify 24 appropriate forest management practices for the region. 25 I think I'll run through a couple more
701 here and then maybe we'll break for lunch anyways and we 2 can come back and finish the rest. 3 Agriculture. There's just a couple of 4 terms for agriculture. New agriculture development 5 should minimize the clearing, draining and the use of 6 chemicals. And there should be work to address the 7 obstacles to northern agriculture production and increase 8 local production and the use of agriculture products. 9 We bring a lot of food in from the south 10 and there's -- there's certainly no reason that that 11 should happen if we can grow more of it here. 12 And finally we have a few terms for 13 tourism. The first is big game outfitters. Regulatory 14 authorities will not issue any new big game outfitters' 15 licenses in the Dehcho territory and that reflects a 16 number of different Dehcho First Nations resolutions. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Heidi -- 18 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: Fishing lodges -- 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: We don't have a -- we 20 don't have a picture here so I'm wondering, it's pretty 21 hard to follow, maybe we can take a break, okay? 22 Maybe we will just take a quick break for 23 lunch, it is twelve o'clock. And we'll continue and we 24 will get that projector working again. It is pretty hard 25 to follow just a verbal presentation, we need to see a
711 visual one. 2 So, let's just bring it to a halt here. 3 We will break -- at one o'clock? 1:30? 4 Try to be back here at one o'clock if we 5 can, and we'll resume our discussion. Okay. Thanks. 6 7 --- Upon recessing at 12:10 p.m. 8 --- Upon resuming at 1:50 p.m. 9 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Again, we would like to 11 call people back to the tables. Return to your seats, 12 please, so we can continue with our presentation. 13 Again, we'd like to begin. This morning 14 we got into a bit of a presentation on work that was cut 15 out for us a few months back, and we had our Executive 16 Director, Heidi Wiebe continue to make presentations. 17 And I think what we did this morning was 18 we went through a list of items that were -- that we had 19 done some work on, and again this afternoon we would like 20 to continue with that this afternoon. 21 And I see that we have the projector 22 working again. 23 Could we have people return to the seats 24 back there, please. And if we could close the doors 25 there, so we can -- so we can continue here, if somebody
721 could close the doors back there. 2 3 (BRIEF PAUSE) 4 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So with that, 6 Heidi, if you can continue with your presentation, I 7 think it's Tourism Terms, Heidi. 8 MS. HEIDI WIEBE: All right. As you get 9 your seats, I'll just continue on here, because we want 10 to move on to the community presentations this afternoon, 11 so I'll move through this last bit fairly quickly, 12 there's maybe fifteen (15), twenty (20) minutes left. 13 So, again, we were reviewing the terms and 14 the -- the zoning of the November Revised Draft Plan. So 15 for tourism terms we have Big Game Outfitters, which says 16 that regulatory authorities will not issue any new big 17 game outfitters' licenses in the Dehcho territory. 18 For Fishing Lodges, new fishing lodges in 19 Zone 5 will not be approved without the written support 20 of Sambaa K'e First Nation. Sports fishing, regulatory 21 authorities will meet with communities to address 22 concerns with sport fishing and enforcement. 23 SMART Principles, and that stands for the 24 Sustainable Model for Arctic Regional Tourism, it's a -- 25 a set of circumpolar principles aimed at guiding tourism
731 activities in Northern Arctic environments, and it just 2 says that the Government will apply the sustainable model 3 for Arctic tourism in approving and regulating new 4 tourism operations. 5 Leave No Trace, which is basically, pack 6 your garbage in, pack it out again, again encouraging 7 individuals and tourism operators to follow these 8 guidelines during their stay within the Dehcho Territory. 9 And Visitor Quotas, this allows for 10 communities to work with regulatory authorities to 11 develop visitor quota or visitor management systems in 12 areas where it would be required to maintain the 13 wilderness experience or -- or protect ecological or 14 cultural values. 15 We have a number of terms in the Plan, 16 aimed to address wildlife issues, so the first or the 17 biggest is Accumulative Effects Management. And the Plan 18 identifies four (4) different indicators and two (2) 19 focal species, and thresholds for development related to 20 those indicators, and those would be used to manage 21 development in general use and special-management zones. 22 As part of that work, there are a number 23 of data gaps that currently exist, so we have six (6) or 24 seven (7) different action items related to filling those 25 different research gaps to improve our management of
741 cumulative effects in future years. 2 As part of that, there's a term for 3 digital pre- and post-operation mapping, and this allows 4 the committee to collect digital mapping, so things like 5 GPS weigh points or -- or, you know, more different types 6 of digital files about the location of future 7 developments, as they come in with each application. And 8 that would allow us and regulatory authorities to track 9 where development is occurring and it will allow us to 10 run those Cumulative Effects Assessments with every 11 application. 12 Significant Features and Seasonal 13 Restrictions, says that developers will avoid physical 14 disturbance of significant habitat in environmental 15 features during critical periods, and aircraft should 16 maintain a minimal altitude of 650 metres, when flying 17 over critical bird sites during these periods. 18 Moving on to the social and economic terms 19 in the plan, of course we talk a lot about consultation 20 with communities, and the plan sets that a full and 21 meaningful consultation is required by the developer with 22 affected communities and individuals, based on current 23 best practices. And that includes things like direct 24 reporting to communities, hiring a translator for 25 meetings, and things like that.
751 There's a need to promote the development 2 of more secondary industry in the region, so we have a 3 recommendation aimed at that, to improve the economy in 4 the region, as one (1) way of doing that. 5 Dehcho business development, this term is 6 in recognition of the higher costs for labour, 7 transportation, goods and services in the north, that 8 sometimes pose a challenge to northern businesses 9 competing effectively with southern businesses that have 10 access to cheaper goods and things. So we've had a 11 recommendation to ask Government and businesses to, you 12 know, provide different policies and incentives to help 13 promote and assist northern businesses. 14 The economic development strategy is an 15 action for joint initiative between Government, First 16 Nations, and industry, to identify the long term economic 17 needs of the region, and develop an action plan to begin 18 to fulfil those -- those needs. 19 As part of that, there's the -- an 20 understanding or an issue with respect to money 21 management in a lot of the communities, and a need for 22 more training and assistance in this area. So we have a 23 few terms relating to teaching principles of sound 24 financial management and long term planning to assist 25 communities and individuals manage their money more
761 responsibly for long-term gain. 2 A lot of concerns from community meetings 3 on health and social issues, with respect to increasing 4 levels of development in that funding for these areas 5 needs to increase concurrently with development. So 6 there's a request for that. 7 Camps and communities. This is to, again, 8 recommend that developers and camp operators work with 9 the communities to determine appropriate locations and 10 relationships between the camps and the communities. As 11 well as recommendations for flexible shift and holiday 12 options, to reduce the impacts of different types of -- 13 of arrangements on the family unit. 14 Capacity building is an issue that 15 everyone struggles with, so we encourage everyone to keep 16 capacity issues in mind, and keep this as a -- as a key 17 factor in making decisions about future development. 18 And development awareness is a big one 19 (1), many people have mentioned that some of the 20 communities do not have a lot of experience with all the 21 different types of -- of land uses out there, and that 22 any initiatives to increase awareness at the community 23 level about the types of developments and -- and the cost 24 and benefits would be helpful. 25 So that is the end of the terms in the
771 Plan in the zones. I just want to quickly review 2 information on approval and implementation processes for 3 the Plan. 4 Again the current deadline for submission 5 is March 31st of this year, so in about six (6)/seven (7) 6 weeks, the intent is to submit the final draft plan for 7 approval. 8 Once we have submitted, Dehcho First 9 Nations has first approval on the plan. So they will 10 have to review it and decide whether or not to approve 11 it. Once Dehcho First Nations has approved the plan then 12 it goes to the GNWT for approval and once they're -- they 13 have approved it, then it goes to the Government of 14 Canada, who will consider the plan and may provide 15 binding direction to the Mackenzie Valley Land and Water 16 Board. 17 Again by approving the plan, the 18 government agreed to implement it to the extent of their 19 authority and mandates. 20 The Planning Committee, as per the -- the 21 IMA will monitor conformity along with Government 22 departments, agencies and institutions that currently 23 authorize, approve, monitor and enforce land uses. 24 Again, the goal is that no new legislation is required to 25 implement the plan because there will not be any changes,
781 in advance of a final agreement. What is required is 2 that policy direction from the Ministers to their 3 departments to work according to the plan. 4 The plan will also be implemented through 5 a new set of sub-surface land withdrawals. So any of the 6 zones where oil and gas or mining is restricted, would be 7 -- would form a new set of land withdrawals that would 8 replace or modify the land withdrawals that are currently 9 in place for this region. And the service would not be 10 withdrawn, but would be managed instead through this 11 binding policy direction from the Ministers. 12 So that is the end of the overview of the 13 plan. What we wanted to do now was give you an example 14 of how the plan might be applied to a new permit 15 application. So we've just done a little mock scenario 16 and there isn't a lot of detail, this is just to give you 17 a rough idea. 18 But say, for example, someone wanted to 19 apply to do some oil and gas development in the Cameron 20 Hills, which is Zone 21, and we've given a location for 21 it, you know, down here, we've just picked a spot. 22 And so they're applying for a land use 23 permit and we need to determine, is it related to an 24 existing disposition? Again, if it's already there it 25 doesn't -- it's not affected by the plan.
791 Is the application complete? So when the 2 application is submitted, the Mackenzie Valley Land and 3 Water Board will check through it, make sure all the 4 information's in there, same as they do right now. 5 And then they would distribute it to the 6 committee and other regulatory authorities for review, as 7 per their current process. And in this time we and 8 others would check conformity with all of the applicable 9 conformity requirements in the plan. 10 So for us to be looking at land use zones, 11 so is this permit application permitted within the area 12 described, and, yes, oil and gas is permitted within Zone 13 21. 14 The next one (1) is cumulative effects 15 management. In the Plan it describes that our committee 16 would run the analysis on this, because we have these 17 files and we would have received a new digital file with 18 the application as per that one (1) term. And so we 19 would run our -- the effects analysis in our office, and 20 we could give an answer, you know, within a few hours. 21 So does the proposed development fall 22 below the cumulative effects thresholds, set for the 23 described area. In this case we're saying, yeah, it 24 falls below the one point eight (1.8) linear density 25 threshold, and we'd run through the other three (3) or
801 four (4), and if everything was good then we would 2 continue on. 3 Now we've just pulled from the list of 4 twenty-seven (27), which terms might be applicable to 5 such an application. And what I'll do is I'll show you 6 how each of these conformity requirements might be 7 checked through the regulatory process. 8 So the first thing, is it an existing 9 right? Again, if it's -- if it is, or if it's related to 10 an existing right, they proceed directly to the 11 regulatory system, you don't have to go through the rest 12 of that list. 13 If it's not related to an existing right 14 and it's a new development, the next question is, is this 15 land use permitted in the zone? We've already said, yes, 16 it is, so you would continue with the application review. 17 If it was not permitted, as per the zoning, the 18 application would be sent back for, you know, 19 modification or reconsideration. 20 There are a number of the conformity 21 checks that we would expect to be first addressed with 22 the communities through consultations. And that's why we 23 stress in the Plan how important consultation is, to 24 start before the application, because many of these 25 questions could be answered there.
811 So the first question that we would expect 2 the developer to discuss with the community is, is there 3 any traditional knowledge the community has that's 4 relevant to this application about -- for oil and gas 5 development? If the answer is, Yes, then more work is 6 required. If the answer is, No, that term is complete. 7 Are there any significant traditional land 8 use and occupancy sites that would be affected by this 9 proposed development? What are the impacts? Who are the 10 individuals that they need to talk to; so on. These are 11 the types of questions we would expect to be asked. 12 What's the level of consultation required, 13 is it a minor project or a major one (1), you know, how - 14 - you know, they should be working these things out with 15 the community and the regulatory authorities. 16 Are there any plant gathering areas that 17 also could be affected by this project? So again, the 18 communities would have this list as per one (1) of the 19 actions in the plan, and they would know through their 20 harvesters and their elders where these important plant 21 gathering areas are, and you would provide that 22 information to the developer. 23 What are the concerns regarding access 24 corridors? So if new roads or trails are required in 25 this area, or seismic lines, is there ways to ensure that
821 the routing is the least environmentally or culturally 2 damaging option. And can we reduce the level or the -- 3 the types of impacts from that. 4 Is there an opportunity for timber 5 recovery from any timber that might be cut -- cut down as 6 part of this operation? If so, can the community or a 7 local forestry operation make use of that wood, and you 8 know, they should be making plans to go in there and 9 recover that -- that timber. 10 And then finally, which wildlife species 11 and significant features are present and when are the 12 critical periods? So the Plan lays out the critical 13 periods and the communities are very aware through their 14 harvesters and elders of, you know, where the key calving 15 grounds are or nesting areas and that -- that they would 16 identify through mapping with the developer, or also 17 through E&R Biologists. And so the developer would know 18 which areas they had to avoid, if their operation was 19 planned during those critical periods. 20 So depending on how those questions are 21 answered with the communities, as you go through and 22 build the application for development, these are things 23 that the regulatory authorities would be expected to look 24 for in the application. There is TK, but also is there 25 the scientific -- relevant scientific information
831 included. This is an example of one (1) type of permit 2 that they might also use like the NWT Archaeologist 3 Permit required for anything dealing with heritage 4 resources that are found. 5 Have the affected communities and 6 individuals been consulted on the project? Have the 7 plant gathering areas been addressed with the First 8 Nations and has the developer done a survey to ensure 9 that all of these areas are mapped appropriately? And 10 does the application demonstrate appropriate design, 11 location, site selection, or mitigation for minor 12 infrastructure? 13 Was there a need to do an access planning 14 or routing study, depending on what roads or things 15 needed to be built? Will the development minimize use 16 and loss of water, and if there was a need to do any 17 baseline studies on that, or stay within 10 percent of 18 the noted baseline? 19 If there is reclamation required, are the 20 seed mixes free of invasive species? 21 Will development minimize the loss and 22 waste of timber resources, and have they worked with the 23 communities to develop a plan to get that timber out? 24 Have they provided the digital maps we 25 require for a cumulative effects analysis?
841 Does the development fall within or below 2 the cumulative effects thresholds? Now we would have 3 provided that answer. 4 And have they provided mitigation for the 5 significant features and seasonal restrictions? 6 So having asked or dealt with those 7 questions through the application and consultations, we 8 then say, does the application address all of these terms 9 appropriately? If the answer is, yes, the application is 10 approved from that standpoint and continues on to the 11 regulatory -- the permitting process, and where permits 12 and licenses would be issued with all conditions 13 required, to ensure that those terms are conformed to. 14 If there is a problem with any of those 15 terms or that they were not addressed appropriately, then 16 the regulatory authority would be expected to send the 17 application back with reasons why and for further 18 consideration and amendment. 19 So that's just a really brief example of 20 how the plan might be implemented. Certainly there is, 21 you know, more detail than that required when we get to 22 that stage. But given that we're still going through 23 final revisions on the plan, it's premature to go further 24 than that. 25 So I wanted to wrap up the presentation
851 with a final discussion of the revisions and amendments. 2 As you know, this plan will be in place 3 for five (5) years, and it's subject to revision and 4 review every five (5) years. 5 The first revision will likely be with the 6 signing of the Dehcho final agreement. If that takes 7 longer, then we'll still have our five (5) year review, 8 and we will look at all aspects of the plan when we 9 review it, to ensure that it reflects, you know, the 10 current vision and goals of that time, considers new 11 data, possibly new land uses. 12 And once we have made all of the changes 13 and consulted with everybody, same as we're doing right 14 now, all three (3) parties would again have to approve 15 any changes to the plan. 16 Similarly, if there is a requirement to 17 change the plan before five (5) years, say there is a big 18 application next year or a community wants to change 19 something or one (1) of the three (3) parties really 20 requires a change in the plan, we can make an early 21 amendment. But again, we need all three (3) Governments 22 to approve those changes. 23 And finally there's currently an exception 24 process spelled out, which allows for minor variances and 25 a more flexible approach in the plan. So the terms might
861 set all these different conditions, but if there's 2 extenuating circumstances or there's a need for the 3 committee to grant a minor variance to the Plan, then we 4 have the flexibility to do that. And we would affect -- 5 consult all affected planning partners before making our 6 decisions on that. 7 So just for final steps before we turn the 8 forum back over to all of you, the Planning Committee 9 will be reviewing all of the comments that you have 10 submitted, that you have presented in the pre-forum 11 information sessions, and that we're going to be 12 discussing here over the next three (3) days. We'll take 13 all of those back and go through them very carefully and 14 give them full consideration. 15 The rest of February and March we're going 16 to be revising the land use plan, and that includes 17 potential revisions to the zones and all of the terms, 18 the implementation, based on the feedback that we've 19 received. And again, March 31st we will be submitting 20 the final draft plan to all three (3) Governments for 21 approval. 22 And that is the end of our presentation, 23 mahsi cho. 24 25 (BRIEF PAUSE)
871 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Heidi. 2 Again, this is what's laid out for us, a very ambitious 3 piece of work that's cut out before us, but we needed to 4 -- to hear it. And I'm glad that our staff at the Land 5 Use Planning Office was able to carry out the work, 6 listen to the people in the communities and pull together 7 the information that was required for -- for the Plan. 8 And so again, it's -- it's a major 9 undertaking, it's quite massive really, when you look at 10 the information and all the details that had gone into 11 this piece of work. 12 Again, what we'd like to do this afternoon 13 is move on to the community presentations. What we'd 14 like to do is to begin and have each of the communities 15 make presentations to get some feedback from each of you. 16 This is your chance to tell us of what you 17 think of the plan, and to tell us what's in there, what's 18 missing, what concerns that you have. And if we can keep 19 the presentation focussed to the plan itself, we'd sure 20 appreciate that. 21 This afternoon we'll have all the First 22 Nations, K'atlodeeche First Nations. We'll start off 23 with K'atlodeeche, then West Point, the Deh Gah Gotie, 24 Fort Providence Metis, Jean Marie River, and Ka'a'gee tu, 25 Sambaa K'e, Nahanni Butte, Liidli Kue, Fort Simpson
881 Metis, Pehdzeh Ki First Nation, and also the Acho Dene 2 Koe, Fort Liard Metis, Dehcho First Nations. 3 And at the end of this what we'd also like 4 to do is if the elders would have a chance to maybe even 5 get together briefly, and we'd like to hear something 6 from the elders, the Dehcho elders on what's before us. 7 So with that, maybe Chief Roy, if we can 8 turn this over to you, and we'll have Chief Roy Fabian 9 lead the discussion. So with that I'll turn it over to 10 K'atlodeeche First Nation, Chief Roy Fabian. Roy...? 11 12 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 13 14 CHIEF ROY FABIAN: When you look at what 15 we had seen with regards to the land use planning that's 16 been presented to us, we did that when we had an interim 17 land use agreement, and ever since then we made that. 18 And when we look at how our land is going 19 to be used and -- and how our land is going to be 20 protected, especially protected from the people that are 21 mining, that are oil company. We can't let them just be 22 on our land and get permits and move on our land, we do 23 not like that. So that's the reason why we ask for this 24 interim resource agreement -- interim resource agreement, 25 and within that is -- the land use planning is included
891 in there. 2 When we say the land use planning, what 3 we're doing is how are we going to use the land, we as a 4 Dene people, that are using our land and that is 5 harvesters that are using trapping, how we respect our 6 land, what's important for us, we do not want that to be 7 -- to be damaged. 8 That's the reason why we do that, just 9 because of our culture and our values and our traditional 10 values that we use. That's the reason why we're not 11 going to address that too much, but we're going to talk 12 about the Harvesters, how they do their trapping. And I 13 don't think we're going to talk that much on that. 14 But people that are on our land right now 15 that are doing some survey or anything, and doing -- 16 they're not being watched, they do whatever they want, 17 they just get a permit and go wherever they want. 18 For lately we've been watching these 19 things, and within the Mackenzie Valley Resource 20 Management Act, when they started that, I remember that 21 people started working differently, they're starting to 22 consult with the -- with the community, but before that 23 it used to be the Mackenzie Land and Water Board that 24 would issue the permit. 25 They're the ones that give the permits out
901 to the people and when they ask for permits they give it 2 to them, to the companies. And -- and when they do that, 3 they say that this is the way it's going to be. 4 So it wasn't very comfortable for us, 5 because it's like -- nobody consulted with us. Sometimes 6 they don't even -- they just write to us and say that 7 we're going to be doing this on your land. If they do 8 that, yes, we will respond and agree with it, but we 9 can't, because the way it is right now they're not 10 watching what we're saying. 11 And also, some of the things that we look 12 at is that we're going to have to protect our land and 13 respect it. We need to do that, we need to -- we need to 14 look at that, and but for the Government of Canada, it's 15 not important for them. 16 Mackenzie Valley Resource Management Act, 17 when that was made, it was for the -- the people that are 18 miners, that are oil companies, it's for them. It's -- 19 it's the policy that they use, and it's too powerful for 20 them to be using it. 21 So we, as a Dene people, what we said that 22 -- is that they didn't get our consent and they did 23 whatever they wanted by using a permit. And that's the 24 reason why it wasn't fair for us, so we want to make it 25 best for us in the Dehcho Region.
911 So at that time there when we did the 2 interim -- interim land -- land use agreement, when we 3 did that, at that time there we started working on the 4 land use plan. How and what's going to be happening on 5 our land after we discuss it and after we put things 6 forward, then we're going to use that policy to follow as 7 a guideline. 8 And that way then we go ahead, the Dehcho 9 Region, you know, until such time as we've put our -- get 10 our final agreement, we're going to use these paper to 11 protect us, and that's what we did. And I remember we 12 did that. 13 So now how many years now we've been 14 working on this land use planning. So if you really look 15 at it, in English it's mostly towards like white man way. 16 And even that sometimes we've got to be 17 aware of it, because it's not comfortable for us, and it 18 was too strong towards the white people and then it cuts 19 away from our culture. The way as we think, the way as 20 we -- we do things, it's not -- it's not really grabbed 21 onto it and -- and is not as strong as it should be, 22 that's the way I feel about this. 23 So this is written in English and so it's 24 strong for them. But for us Dene people, it's not 25 written for us so, you know, it's not as strong as it
921 should be with our language, and so those are the things 2 that I was thinking I wanted to say that much for that. 3 Now I say that if it was written in the 4 Dene language maybe it would have been stronger, but it 5 hasn't been done, so it's written in English, that's the 6 reason why it's not as strong as we were thinking about. 7 So I wanted to say that. 8 So we K'atlodeeche ever since we started 9 this with regards to the land use planning we worked on 10 it, we did that and we worked with our elders and we sat 11 with them and we talked with the harvesters and we had a 12 meeting with them with regards to how they think about 13 the land. We -- we had a meeting with them and a lot of 14 people addressed their concerns. 15 Remember when the Dene Nation back in -- 16 when they had done the work before this, how the -- how 17 the land was being used, and I know they got those 18 information in the -- in the Dene Nation archives. And 19 they were going to use that to kind of guide us so that 20 the elders that have used the land, they can help them as 21 they continue talking about their -- the way they -- they 22 consider it and respect the land with regards to the Dene 23 and Metis and land use plan. 24 The map that they have made, that's what 25 we're using as, we'll go back to their own and that's
931 what we used. So we had a meeting with regards to that. 2 For us it wasn't comfortable, because within our land 3 here we -- this seems like we're not -- it's not our 4 land, it's more Canada's land. 5 And the way they have these bunch of 6 papers done, put forward, and the way they want to work 7 on land, they use those and that's how they follow -- 8 they follow the guideline of their paper. And for me 9 that's not comfortable. 10 We, as the Dene people, the way we see the 11 way that our elders have taught us, if I'd known, we as a 12 Dene people, we were -- we are the people, we are the 13 people that day when we went to the white people and ask 14 them for our land. It's them that came onto our land and 15 they ask us for land, and asked if they could share it 16 with us. They're the ones that came and met us way 17 before that, and that's when we accepted the first 18 Treaty. 19 And with regards to that, we are still -- 20 have that land under us. The Canada at that time, when 21 the elders, they weren't educated, they don't -- they 22 don't even read and write, so they put whatever they want 23 on it and saying that we -- we grabbed the Treaty and 24 gave them the -- gave them the land. 25 I don't think that's right, that's not
941 very true. That's not the way of doing it. And us, we 2 don't follow that, what has been said, what they said, 3 the way they interpret it. The way we interpret it was 4 that we were just going to be friends, it's a friendship 5 Treaty. And at that time, when as long as you guys are 6 living here on our land, we don't want to change nothing 7 from you guys way, that's what they told us. 8 And at that time when they talked to us, I 9 remember the -- the elders who were saying that, that's 10 how it's going to be. So our elders back then, they -- 11 they had accepted that Treaty with Canada, and now then 12 we're supposed to follow that. But we as look at the Hay 13 River Region -- Hay River area here, with regards to the 14 reserve, we're not on a reserve. 15 When we first started in 1970, at that 16 time there -- at the time there when the -- when they 17 said they were going to talk about the pipeline, the 18 first pipeline, at that time there were a lot of people 19 going to take -- even across from town, they were going 20 to take our land. And even the elders here beside me, 21 Daniel Sonfrere was the Chief at that time, and I 22 remember that he started going against them, and so 23 that's why they put this reserve in 1974. 24 The way they -- that's the only way we can 25 protect our land, because that's how powerful it was.
951 The town was going to come across on this side, because 2 they made a statement saying that we're in the town 3 boundary. And that's the way we protected ourself, 4 because we had -- we were pushed to do that, so today 5 that's why we have a reserve here. 6 Now it's been thirty (30) years that we've 7 been living on this reserve, and I don't think we want to 8 go outside of that now. 9 Our elders have put this here to protect 10 us, and they thought about us for the future, that's the 11 reason why they did that. And now we're not going to let 12 it go, it's very hard for us to let it go. 13 But even though -- even though we want to 14 have these lands, that is -- that is our land, the 15 creator gave it to us for us to protect it, and that's 16 why we're not going to let it go, and that's the way 17 we're thinking about it too. And it's still underneath 18 us, and we still want to get it underneath us. 19 Sure, even though we're on a reserve, we 20 still have some other land that is outside of the 21 reserve. We, as the K'atlodeeche First Nation, are going 22 to protect those areas and it's going to be underneath 23 us. And it's not going to change, that's what we're 24 going to do. 25 So whether Canada, they are going to be on
961 our land, then they're going to have to come and work 2 with us, they're going to have to come and work with us 3 and consult with us. That's the reason why within the 4 Dehcho region the way things are going, we like the way 5 it's going. So that's why we sat with the Dehcho Region, 6 we sit with them now. 7 So now we look at this land use planning, 8 what we see in the land use planning, what we're going to 9 be working on from hereon going forward. Yes, we're 10 going to put it forward and if we all say, Yes, from 11 hereon going forward, what's on our land, even though 12 there's going to be people on our land, they've got to 13 follow and respect what we make as our law to follow on 14 our land, and how -- whatever -- whatever we're going to 15 address, we want to address that. 16 We'll make a -- we'll make a paper, you 17 guys got to follow that. The people are going to follow 18 it for the next five (5) years, that's what we say. But 19 from here in the next five (5) years, if we can have time 20 to change it we'll change it again, and that's what -- 21 that's what we said with regards to our meeting. For me, 22 when I see this, it sounds good for me. 23 Within the Hay River Region, Hay River 24 area, we still have some of the lands that we want to put 25 underneath us, we'll respect it, even in Buffalo Lake
971 area, that's our land over there. 2 And that's the one (1) our elders have -- 3 have survived through that, through going to Buffalo 4 Lake, and that's our land too. All the other side of it, 5 like outside of the Buffalo Lake, it's not even in the 6 Buffalo Lake area, the elders have used those lands and 7 we protect that one (1), and we need to use that, because 8 they survived through that, and we never let that one (1) 9 go either, it's still underneath us. 10 And within this Hay River here, you see 11 that, that one (1) too, on both sides of it, for certain 12 areas there is our land that is protected, if it's going 13 to be underneath us, we didn't let that one (1) go 14 either. 15 So you look at that, and how we're going 16 to use the land. We got to be consulted and we need to 17 be consulted. But -- but Canada's not thinking that way, 18 that's the reason why we started this land use plan, and 19 that's the reason why we're using this land use plan to 20 protect things like that for us. And it's a very big 21 thing, we respect it. 22 How they're going to be on our land, what 23 they're going to be doing on our land, what they're going 24 to be working on. We need to know all these things, so 25 they've got to respect us if they're going to use that
981 paper. 2 And if we're going to use that, then they 3 can't -- they can't go on our land without consulting us, 4 even our own people, even us, if we've got to work on 5 something we have to follow that paper also too. So for 6 me, I like the way it sounds, if that's -- if that's the 7 way we want to go. 8 We look at these land maps way in the back 9 there, you see how it is, how we're going to hold onto 10 our land, what we're going to -- what are we going to 11 hold on to, what is it that we're going to work on, what 12 is it that we can work on by the use -- use it, but some 13 places, that's protected. What's open, what's not? 14 We've got to look at these things before 15 we can open them for mining maybe, maybe for oil or gas 16 and like that, if we could do that, we have those lands 17 that are open. 18 But you've got to also remember that land 19 use plan right up until now, if we follow it, it will be 20 much better. Even -- even though it's not in the Dene 21 way, the Dene worked on it, they spoke on it, they put it 22 in place, and even though it's in -- it's in the English, 23 not comparable, but still for me -- for me, I like the 24 way it sounds. 25 It's only one (1) land that is there, if
991 you look at it, as we have Buffalo Lake, all the Buffalo 2 Lake area within the Buffalo Park, that's some of our 3 land. And within the Park, with -- outside the Park, and 4 we need to protect that; that's what we really want to do 5 is protect that land. So, we need to do that and stand 6 firm on it. 7 So, how we did it is that we -- we put 8 conservation zone right around it, but still -- but still 9 it's in the Park, so even though it's not going to 10 change, we from -- the people from K'atlodeeche, we still 11 got to work on some things. 12 And use -- use that and to -- and we have 13 to address it back with Canada, so that they can see -- 14 they can think what they're thinking, they can give it to 15 us, and we can think what we think and give it to them 16 how we're going to use and protect that land, especially 17 in the Buffalo Park. So we're going to have to do that. 18 Only then we can go ahead. 19 So -- and after that we've got to think 20 about the Cameron Hills too. Within the Cameron Hills 21 area, our elders have used that land, they survived 22 through that land, nobody else. Some people say that 23 they can't say they've been over there, we as being the 24 Dene people of the K'atlodeeche and the First Nation, we 25 have four (4) trails going up into the Cameron Hills
1001 area, and those are our trails from our elders' trails. 2 The land use plan we talked to them about 3 that, and we told them that. Those four (4) -- those 4 four (4) trails that are going to the Cameron Hills, show 5 it, put it on a map, and that way -- that way it's our 6 traditional land and we know that it is, and so it don't 7 get lost, it can be recorded. 8 So those four (4) trails that are going to 9 Cameron Hills, show it, put it on a map and use that. 10 And -- and that way, whatever is going to go -- whatever 11 is going to be happening within that area it will be up 12 to us whether we accept it or not. Now some of the area 13 of the lands I will talk about, sure you could open it up 14 for -- for explore -- exploration, but it's got to be 15 through -- by our consent. 16 So we look at this special management zone 17 also, and it's -- it's some -- we put some on our land 18 also. 19 Now we look at this map here, maybe it's 20 not shown here, but -- but within the special management 21 zone, what we're thinking is the -- there is some things 22 that we've got to protect and some things that we've got 23 to watch. 24 We can't just look at the Buffalo Lake 25 area and -- and just let them be and let them do whatever
1011 they do, then they might -- they might pollute that place 2 area, so we use a special management zone to protect that 3 -- that part that we use, because a lot of things that 4 has to be -- to be addressed, especially with regard to 5 the people that want to be on that land, they have to 6 consult with us. 7 Even the corridor of the rivers, we did a 8 conservation zone along both sides of the shore, and we 9 need to do that also. The reason we -- we did that is 10 that we could have tourism in there, but other things 11 like looking for mining and stuff like that, it's close 12 to them, so we did that. 13 We look at the river here that's running, 14 our elders, one (1) of the elders said that -- from 15 Meander said that, he said that river there, that Hay 16 River that's flowing, it's like the backbone of the -- of 17 our land, if that's -- if that's spoiled, you -- it's 18 going to affect you guys that are over there at the end 19 of it, that's what they said. 20 So you've got to watch that -- that river 21 that's flowing, it's like a backbone, you've got to 22 protect that, and protect it well. That's what he told 23 us. So that's the reason why we put conservation zone 24 and we did that. 25 How big it is, they didn't accept how big
1021 we want it, but it's okay. We still got some with it, 2 along the shore or along the -- along the river bank on 3 both sides, we put that nothing will be done on those 4 sides, on both sides of the shore, on both sides of the 5 river. 6 Now we here, from here, to the other -- to 7 the other people, we look at these small creeks like 8 Buffalo River, that's going to the Great Slave Lake, 9 these are the ones too -- the -- the fish habitat goes up 10 and the -- they spawn, and somehow we need to protect 11 that too, so that our children's children can use that 12 area, and maybe be protected for the mink if they run 13 into problem. So we put the conservation zone over in 14 that area also. 15 So we from the K'atlodeeche First Nation, 16 we do need our land, we want to protect it and we want to 17 -- we want to protect it so we can use it, but we need to 18 protect it well. Let's not scrape the top and get at the 19 bottom, and let's not do that. We don't want to -- we 20 don't want to. 21 If we take the top off, we scrape it off, 22 what is our children going to live on, so that's why we 23 got to protect our land, we have to do that. And so 24 we've got to protect the surface rights too. 25 One (1) of the things that I like to talk
1031 about is that we -- we have a number of things like the 2 people that want to push a pipeline through, but still 3 we're not comfortable with it yet, but still -- still 4 with regards to that, the -- these people have supported 5 us. 6 So when they put the money forward to give 7 us funding to look, so we did that traditional knowledge 8 report, we put everything in there that's there, that 9 needs to be talked about. For me, if we use this -- and 10 this is put into -- we want to put it in with the land 11 use plan, our traditional knowledge report, that way 12 Canada, what -- what we're thinking about, they'll read 13 it and they will see it within the land use plan when 14 it's in there. 15 We, as the K'atlodeeche, how it's going to 16 be happening on our land and with regard to our 17 traditional knowledge which is our culture, our value, 18 we're going to use that to be followed too. We need that 19 to be followed and we're thinking that way too. 20 So all my people that are here, on our 21 reserve, our Elders, our harvesters, some of the people 22 that are working with us, they help us how we're going to 23 protect our land. And we talked about that so I want to 24 say thank you to them. 25 We, in the Hay River Reserve, maybe we
1041 look like we live like white people but it's still our 2 Elders that guide us. They're the ones that's gone ahead 3 of us. They're the ones gives us these information and 4 if they talk we follow that and we use that -- their 5 information. That's how we work. 6 But a lot of Elders are disappearing now 7 and a lot of them are -- are going to Mother Earth. So 8 this is very big thing that we have here. This book here 9 and what our Elders have said, we recorded that and it's 10 in there. And it's all in there. 11 So, -- so from here on we go forward. If 12 we say yes we're going to have to look at ourself. If we 13 say yes and Canada is not going to say yes just because 14 one (1) community say yes. But the way I hear it is that 15 it's got to look at all this land if we're going to 16 protect it and going to do it. 17 Once that Canada review it, doesn't like 18 it, him too has got to say something against that. So we 19 know that. But one thing is that they've got to 20 remember, those Canada, they have to remember we have 21 that -- have the treaty. We, as the Dene people, we 22 didn't give them the land. They've got to remember that. 23 We still have that land underneath us. 24 That's where we are. If they talk about it, for me, they 25 use that land use plan the way it is, I'm not really
1051 happy with it yet but still I can work around it and use 2 it to work with. 3 But once Canada, if they said no, that 4 much has been work, how much the Elders have put in 5 there. Herbie talked about it -- talk about it not too 6 long ago. A lot of our Elders that -- that worked on it 7 they're not here with us today. 8 And -- and now they come here and then 9 they tell us that they're going to be the boss of our 10 land, I don't think so. If we give them this paper, this 11 is the way we want it, that's what we're saying. 12 So they come in here and even then they 13 say we don't like it, it's because they're not working 14 well with us. They don't hear us clearly. If they don't 15 want to work with the Dene people they're going to have 16 to understand, we as a Dene people we know that. We've 17 got to remember that. That's what we rely on. 18 So if we give them this land use plan we 19 give them that, yes, we say yes, then if they take it and 20 they've got -- we're thinking that they'll follow that, 21 with it, to use it. If they change it and then it's not 22 comfortable for us and it's not -- not comfortable for us 23 and then it's going to go and go, continue, continue, 24 continue, that's what's going to happen. 25 And, yes, we know that Canada has a bunch
1061 of -- they have this land use committee. They sat on 2 there with us. Them two that helped us. If it's not 3 comfortable for them, it should be the people that are 4 sitting on there, they're the ones that should be -- they 5 should be the ones -- they should be the ones giving that 6 information to Canada. 7 If not, then it's on their behalf. It's 8 their fault. We, as the Dene people, the way we think, 9 the way we see, we're not going to change it. If they 10 want to do it, we're going to have a long meeting yet. 11 But still -- but now we want to do the 12 best for us, that's the reason why we've got it up to 13 this far. From here on going forward we, as the Dene 14 people, what we think and what we -- what we think and 15 what we put in there, we've got to put it in there. 16 That's why we put it in there. But maybe 17 Canada might not think that way. He wants to work 18 different and they just want us to follow them all the 19 time and they still want to do whatever they want on our 20 land, I will not say yes to it. 21 So, that's one thing I'm telling you. I'm 22 telling you people here, your delegation, this Dene D'eh, 23 it's ours. It's the Creator gave us this and put us 24 here. We never let it go. Then they use paper and they 25 told us that they recorded that we gave it to them
1071 through treaty. 2 No, for in the Creator's mind I don't 3 think it's right. But still, them they sign on that. 4 For me I want to see that. From here on going forward 5 we, as the Dene people, it's going to be up to us. This 6 is our land. This is our land that -- we don't want 7 nobody to tell us what to do. 8 We're the ones to tell people what to do 9 and what we're going to tell you and you've got to follow 10 what we say. My people, we don't do that. Then we look 11 at Canada, we look at these different people that are 12 resource people. 13 They're going to come and run right over 14 us. And where we stand, look at it, we live here. We 15 have to protect ourselves to protect ourselves, we have 16 to choose a reserve otherwise it will be -- it will be 17 right over us. They will have to rule right over us too. 18 So we look at this land use plan and stand 19 firm on it. We have to respect that and stand firm on 20 it. We have to protect it. And also we have to use it. 21 But for me, one thing maybe if they're not comfortable -- 22 Canada is not comfortable and they say it's not going to 23 happen, for me I don't really agree with that term. 24 So, those are the things that I wanted to 25 say. And I will probably sometimes I'll say it in
1081 English but when I say it in my own language, boy, I feel 2 the strength of it and I say exactly what I want to say. 3 Sure I could say it in English but I guess 4 that's why we have -- that's why I have a translator. So 5 I didn't want to say nothing in English. Maybe in the 6 end, maybe if they want to question me I'll do it in 7 English. 8 But for now I'll say that much and with 9 regards to the use plan that has been worked on, it is 10 very good. I appreciate it and I respect it. And the 11 way we look at our land we made this land use plan, it's 12 the way we thought. 13 And throughout all our stories, what -- 14 the land is ours and this is the way we look at it and 15 this is the way we're going to put it forward. It's up 16 to Canada, even if they don't like it, we put what we 17 say. And if they follow what they are then they'll 18 benefit to. Thank you very much. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Chief Roy 20 Fabian of K'atlodeeche. 21 If we can move to the next presenter, West 22 Point. Chief Karen Felker. Karen...? 23 And then followed by that the Deh Gah 24 Gotie First Nation, Fort Providence -- and then the Fort 25 Providence Metis.
1091 Karen Felker...? 2 CHIEF KAREN THOMAS FELKER: Good 3 afternoon, everyone. We've been working a little bit 4 here and there with our lands and mapping things out, 5 conservation zones and other areas. We're planning on 6 doing a joint venture with Jean Marie River hopefully in 7 the next new fiscal year for training some of our band 8 members for logging. 9 So that would be a -- that's future 10 planning, I guess. Right now what we're doing is just 11 trying to get all our information together, compile it 12 and maybe get some kind of database going. 13 We'll be getting our -- our resource 14 person Chris Paci to do most of that work. We'll be 15 having more community meetings. We're having one on 16 Friday to work more on our lands. There's a lot of work 17 to be done. 18 And that's it. Massi cho. Thanks. 19 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks there, Chief 20 Karen Felker. 21 If we can move on to the Deh Gah Gotie 22 First Nation? 23 Fort Providence, is somebody here? Is 24 Chief Berna Landry here? Not here? Okay, we'll wait 25 until they arrive.
1101 If we can move on to Rick Lafferty, Fort 2 Providence Metis. 3 MR. RICHARD LAFFERTY: Good afternoon. 4 Unfortunately Chief Berna Landry couldn't make it here. 5 Her daughter is having a baby so she's attending to that 6 right now. 7 But I'll just generally speak on behalf of 8 Providence and say a few words with respect to this land 9 use plan. There's -- if you look at the area around 10 Providence there's three (3) large white areas under the 11 general use zone. 12 And a lot of that area is -- is 13 traditional land use area of the Fort Providence Metis. 14 However, due to lack of human capacity and plus we've 15 lost several key elders over the last four (4) years or 16 so, our -- our traditional knowledge information is -- is 17 not complete. 18 But we'll work to include that in -- in 19 future drafts or maybe in the five (5) year review. But 20 just to let you know that work is ongoing. 21 And I just wanted to point out one of the 22 -- one real key area here with respect to Fort Providence 23 is if you look at the Mills Lake area under the Edehzhie 24 area the barging route goes right into the Edehzhie area 25 and there is a significant number of barges.
1111 There's going to be eighteen hundred and 2 ten (1810) barges returned through that area during 3 pipeline construction and that's a significant amount 4 with a large two thousand (2,000) horsepower, no, four 5 thousand (4,000) horsepower engines that will be pushing 6 barges through that area. 7 Significant impact could take place there. 8 Also the Providence Narrows. You know, I was watching a 9 barge -- one of the NT tugs pull a coastguard vessel up 10 the river because the coastguard vessel wrecked all its 11 props downriver. 12 It took them four (4) hours from the water 13 treatment plant to Big River just to come through 14 Providence Narrows, one (1) trip upstream. Significant 15 impact with, what do you call, emissions. Like, the 16 black smoke coming out of those stacks was worse than 17 anything in the area. 18 And if you're talking, you know, nine (9) 19 -- nine hundred and five (905) upstream trips, there's 20 air quality and water quality issues that are going to be 21 severe there. 22 You know in -- just in terms of land use 23 and the pressure around that area, part of our problem 24 we're facing is in the '30's and '40's it was outlawed 25 erroneously we believe, but it was temporary as well, it
1121 was outlawed for Metis to hunt beaver and trap and fish 2 in the area. 3 So a lot of our -- our elders, you know, 4 continued to do it but went under -- under the -- 5 underground, so to speak, and -- and, you know, had 6 difficulty pursuing their traditional activities because 7 of -- because of the laws of that day. So that's part of 8 our problem in bringing our traditional knowledge 9 together that we face. 10 You know, the eighteen hundred and ten 11 (1810) barges, that does not include the camps and the 12 heavy equipment that will have to be returned south 13 after. So the -- when you look at the -- the period, 14 you've got three (3) months -- a three (3) month window 15 and in the most intense year there's four hundred and 16 fifty-six (456) loads. 17 That's fifty-one (51) trips near 18 Providence a day. And you try to return through that 19 area, it takes at least two (2) hours to get back up with 20 empty barges. 21 Let alone four (4) hours pushing a loaded 22 barge. So there's -- there's some mitigation measures 23 that need to go on when you look at that and I'm really 24 happy that there is a major focus on the water issues in 25 those areas around that.
1131 Now, I mean, that's not the only problem 2 we face because, in addition to that, there's four 3 thousand, nine hundred (4,900), so basically five 4 thousand (5,000) truckloads that are going to go by just 5 on the south side. 6 And we have some experience with this 7 already. We lose twenty (20) to forty (40) buffalo a year 8 in the Wood Bison Sanctuary north of Providence and our 9 annual tag allocation is forty (40) tags a year. So 10 we're losing almost as many buffalo to accidents as we're 11 allowed to use for food and for -- for, you know, big 12 game hunts and so on. 13 So that causes us some real concern of 14 what's going to happen on the south side because, you 15 know, we're already shipping 300 million litres of fuel 16 north at a minimum rate now. And it jumps 50 to 90 17 million litres per mine. 18 We're talking 205 million litres of fuel 19 past Providence, again, either on the river or by road 20 for one (1) pipeline. And it's going to increase once 21 oil and gas exploration goes on down there. So there's 22 some real significant work that needs to be done in terms 23 of mitigation and accommodation for that transportation 24 corridor through our region. 25 And right now we're being brushed off as
1141 if, Oh, there's -- you know, it's public access, public 2 transportation route, you've got no say. Well, our 3 leadership thinks different and our elders think 4 different. There's got to be a say and it's got to be 5 factored in for the best possible scenario in terms of 6 wildlife compensation and, what you call, environmental 7 protection. 8 In addition to what's going to be 9 happening in terms of barging on the river, we're putting 10 in a bridge which would only -- which is only required 11 because of Yellowknife and the mines. Otherwise there 12 would be no requirement for a bridge at Providence. 13 So now you're going to have the congestion 14 of fifty (50) some barges going through the Providence 15 Narrows area while there's bridge construction going on 16 in the same area. Imagine that for logistical problems. 17 So, you know, we're quite concerned about 18 the whole -- the whole area and what's going to happen in 19 the near future. And we're very happy and we're, you 20 know, we participated completely in this with our 21 traditional knowledge studies because the Metis were part 22 of a traditional knowledge study with the -- with the 23 Dene. However, we -- we didn't have our complete 24 information and we're working on it. 25 But you know, in terms of accommodation
1151 and mitigation, I think the table is -- is facing the 2 wrong way because it seems that we are the ones that are 3 always accommodating and struggling to mitigate any 4 damages. And that should be industry's and the 5 proponent's objectives not our -- our problem. 6 And I believe -- well, we believe that, 7 you know, this is in the right direction. It's one (1) 8 land and it should be one (1) plan just like the -- just 9 like the -- the slogan says. Mahsi Cho. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Thanks, Rick. 11 Again, if we can move on we'd like to call 12 on Jean Marie River, Stanley Sanguez. Stan...? 13 CHIEF STANLEY SANGUEZ: Thank you. I'm 14 trying to stay -- I don't like it when it does that. You 15 guys control it over there. Thanks. Well, I'm trying to 16 stay focussed here. Having Terry Plan (phonetic) pick my 17 brains and I'll take a stab at this here. Okay. The 18 Land Use Plan. We still have concerns about that. 19 Hopefully we meet with the two (2) communities, Sambaa 20 K'e and -- to talk about this forestry. 21 Our community is still in the -- Fred 22 Norwegian is the one that's going to be working with our 23 communities on this task, and the guidelines on this. 24 But to get back to the land use planning, 25 we still need to work with our First Nations community on
1161 -- on forestry. We're developing a five (5) to ten (10) 2 year plan on cutting. But at the same time we still need 3 to work with the Imperial Oil on the -- the amount of 4 trees that might be coming out of the -- the corridor on 5 the pipeline. 6 We still need to -- to work with them on 7 that. Having Margaret Ireland work with the communities 8 on the TK, Imperial Oil had funded the community to do 9 the TK on the corridors of the pipeline. And there's 10 still some issues that we need to work with them. 11 I see some of the representatives are 12 here, Ross, that we still need to -- to work with them on 13 looking at the corridor areas that we still have concerns 14 on. There's the Satellite Lake and the underground 15 stream from McGill, from Akeli (phonetic) to Sanguez Lake 16 (phonetic). 17 But when we had a meeting before, Margaret 18 was more or less getting our elders address maybe some 19 concerns that we may have on this land use planning. And 20 I think we touched that up with Heidi, but there's still 21 some things that we need to work with tonight. Hopefully 22 the -- the three (3) communities are here to do that 23 work. 24 The -- the land use planning is basically 25 too for our communities to make sure that we protect our
1171 way of life and to try to find that balanced approach in 2 oil and gas and our way of life. We call that a balanced 3 approach. 4 When we had the -- our protected area 5 strategy steering committee meeting I hear there is some 6 of them here, like Jennifer, Bill Carpenter, the people I 7 used to work with, and I still do. We need to -- to work 8 out how that protected area strategy piece of legislation 9 will help our communities to protect certain areas that 10 are the Five Lakes. 11 And looking at the Edehzhie because when 12 we do the protected -- the land use planning we need to 13 be careful where we don't lock ourselves out on tourism 14 or agricultural and forestry. And I see that on the map 15 before we came here but we will address that with Heidi 16 tonight as a community concern. 17 Because like I always said, this land use 18 planning is an exercise that is good for the communities 19 because we're protecting our Elders and our harvesters 20 and that's the only way we could do things like that. 21 Because if we don't then, you know, when I first seen a 22 lot of the general areas when we first started it, it was 23 a concern to me. Because sometimes we forget our 24 trappers and our -- and our harvesters out there. 25 Because when -- I recently worked with the
1181 protected area strategy committee I keep telling them 2 that even industry indicated to us that this piece of 3 legislation is good. All communities should use that and 4 we said that it coincides with the land use planning that 5 we're doing right now. And it really helps our community 6 to do that work. But I don't really want to get into 7 details about where our concerns are because I want to 8 work with the communities on it tonight. 9 But I know that in -- having said that and 10 within the next few days I guess a lot of us have to, 11 kind of, digest what's happening here and like Grand 12 Chief Herb said, you know, we need to speak our minds and 13 our hearts. 14 How is this land use planning going to be 15 -- ever be the best for us, our communities and our 16 regions if we don't talk about this. And I know 17 sometimes as a Chief I hear some comments that says, 18 well, jeez I wish I should have said this at this 19 meeting. 20 But I think here is a time and a place to 21 do that. And this land use planning exercise is only the 22 best thing that we put all together as a community and as 23 a region. Thank you. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, there, Stanley. 25 We can move on to our next presenter. I
1191 know we have another few more minutes before coffee 2 break. I'd call on Ka'a'gee Tu. Chief Lloyd Chicot. 3 Five (5) minutes. That would be the last presenter and 4 then we'll have a quick coffee break. So Lloyd...? 5 CHIEF LLOYD CHICOT: About five (5) 6 minutes. Give us about five (5) minutes to set up. I 7 just want to -- 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Maybe we'll take 9 a quick break then. Okay, let's have a quick break while 10 we get set up and then we'll call on Ka'agee Tu, Lloyd 11 Chicot to make their presentation. Ten (10) minute 12 break. 13 14 --- Upon recessing at 2:57 p.m. 15 --- Upon resuming at 3:25 p.m. 16 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, if we can return 18 to our seats please we'll resume our meeting. Bring your 19 cakes, bring your coffee cups and, most importantly, 20 bring yourself back to the table there so we can resume 21 our meeting. 22 Our next speaker will be Chief Lloyd 23 Chicot from Ka'a'gee Tu. And, again, what we'll do this 24 time around is as each community speaks what we'll do is 25 we'll put the -- your traditional land use area on the
1201 screen so you can make reference points. You can point 2 to it. 3 4 (BRIEF PAUSE) 5 6 Okay, we're just putting up land use 7 planning maps on there so people will just have a chance 8 to refer to it if you want to. There could be a red 9 pointer there if -- if somebody wanted to do some 10 pointing. 11 So, again, Lloyd Chicot, Ka'a'gee Tu. 12 Followed by that we'll have Sambaa K'e Dene Band, Nahanni 13 Butte, Liidli Kue First Nation, Fort Simpson Metis and 14 Pehdzeh Ki. 15 Lloyd Chicot...? 16 CHIEF LLOYD CHICOT: Yeah, good 17 afternoon. 18 19 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 20 21 I'm Lloyd Chicot and I'm a chief for 22 Kakisa. What I'm going to talk about -- to you about is 23 we have been working on it for a while. We had to work 24 on it for five (5) years. In that time money was given 25 to us to do -- to do this work. Where we -- what we did
1211 in Kakisa we have talked on it and we have worked on it. 2 We'd like to thank those -- all those 3 people who helped us on working on this. The Dene Nation 4 has been helping us on this. Them that -- we'd like to 5 thank everybody who worked on this project. Herbie, 6 Peter and how we use the land and how we -- how we use 7 the land and how we -- we'd like to thank them for giving 8 us all that information, providing us with all that 9 information and we'd like to thank them for working with 10 us and all those people from Kakisa too, I would like to. 11 It's not for them that they did all this 12 work. It's for people, for the future and how -- and I 13 would like to thank everyone that worked on this. 14 Before we started -- in 1973 when we 15 started -- the first time we started in Kakisa where all 16 those trails are they put all their trails where they are 17 travel. There's some Elders that have been here and 18 there's some lakes that they have been travelling to and 19 that's where all those trails are that they have 20 travelled -- the Elders have travelled. 21 Now, you see the -- when you see it it's 22 all written in in red. It's all written on there on that 23 map. When they came to our community it wasn't that much 24 people that were in our community at that time when they 25 came to our community. There was only some hunters that
1221 were there. 2 They -- they showed us where all the 3 trails that was there so that's how -- what you see on 4 the map now. It's all written in in red. How we use the 5 land, it's shown all on the map. 6 Every time I show you a picture how we use 7 the land and we -- you look at it and they told me to 8 show this map so, where all those trails are are where 9 there's moose and where they kill moose and where moose 10 harvesting is shown on the map. 11 If you look at all those trails where we 12 use the land and where we -- they put all this on a map. 13 And that is how -- when they did it it was all written on 14 the map there. 15 After this, just a while ago where all 16 these trails are -- where all these trails are they had 17 worked on it a while ago and then where all these trails 18 are and where all those streams are and where the land 19 they'll be using there had been all these Elders and us 20 people too, we -- where we went hunting and trapping and 21 we -- where that big island is and where they had been -- 22 they put all the names -- the Slavey names of the places 23 where they had been. 24 They put it all on the map and then -- and 25 that's how they wanted to do it so they did it that way.
1231 How they did it was when -- when we do this where all 2 these trails are and where we -- where we went camping, 3 where burial grounds are and where -- where we go by 4 canoe and where we went on winter time and we said we 5 wanted to put all this on a map so -- close to 6 Yellowknife, and we did all that on a map there. We name 7 all those places that we were at. 8 There's one where people use all the land 9 for fishing, ducks and moose and all that. They put 10 where they shot moose and where people used to live and 11 where burial grounds -- burial sites are. They put all 12 those on a map. 13 And what we all worked on and we put it on 14 a map. That's just a while ago and we -- where we have 15 named -- places names for these where we go hunting and 16 where we put place names on there and where we harvest 17 wood and all that we -- where we used to live and where 18 Tathlina too, that's where we named so -- where moose 19 harvesting is and where stories were told from the Elders 20 long time ago and it was all put in place on a map. 21 It has been hard work on this -- working 22 on this map. That's why some people have talked on it 23 already. That's -- stories were told on that so that's 24 how -- what we put on the map there. 25 After that, just a while ago interim
1241 measure they wanted to use some of their land and they 2 want us to choose land that are important to you and 3 choose those lands and then mark it off. So in 2000 and 4 2001 that's when we start working on this project where 5 we use that land and all that and what land was 6 important. That's where we put the land. 7 Even though our Elders, some of them not 8 with us, even though it's very big where streams are and 9 where rivers are we -- for now when we met with 10 government -- government people and then oil -- oil 11 companies, it seems like they got smaller. 12 So, how we use the land it is what's 13 written on in the map right now. That's what we're 14 looking at right now on the map. 15 After this oil company we talked with 16 them, we talk about that land where -- in Cameron Hills 17 and Tathlina and around that land there where they're 18 drilling for oil. It seems like there's nothing to hunt 19 there. 20 They said after four (4) years where -- 21 where we have travelled on our trails we have marked that 22 out. We worked on that. If you look at it really good 23 it seems like it's -- but after talking with the oil 24 companies and that that's how we cut up that land there. 25 If we look at it really good there or if
1251 you -- where -- where there is oil it seems like -- it 2 seems like they cut up that land there; that's what you 3 see it now. But if you look at they said they'd open up 4 that land so they -- so they put it on top of the Cameron 5 Hill if you look at it now. 6 That's all that land that they opened that 7 up for exploration. If we're going to look for gas and 8 that and if they want to -- if they want to look they -- 9 they said they will open up that land for that so -- so - 10 - so we cut up all that land for that. So we talked on 11 it -- on that in Kakisa and we have discussed that on our 12 meetings with the oil companies. 13 So if you look at it really good and if we 14 -- how we look at it a long time ago how we used to use 15 the land, the lands -- which land is important to us we 16 want to protect that land for -- if it's close to where 17 there's oil and gas, you know, we want to protect those 18 areas. 19 We would have been bigger but now it's 20 because of the oil companies that it got smaller. Us 21 too, we want to work with the oil companies so that's how 22 we cut up that land. 23 So if you look at it now last winter when 24 we met we -- just the bottom of that Cameron Hills there, 25 we have opened up that land. There's little streams
1261 there and there's -- there's -- there's a lot of 2 caribou's over there so don't -- don't disturb that area. 3 We told them so. In that area around that area there -- 4 for that water, but they -- they didn't do that. 5 And the other thing that was talking about 6 that where the caribou is they put transmitters on them 7 on the caribous and where they travel and all that, it is 8 all written down there, where the caribou have been 9 travelling and where the caribou has been shot and all 10 that. 11 It's -- the land is important -- the land 12 is important to us so -- so they put transmitter on the 13 caribous and then they -- they map them on the satellite 14 and that's how they -- where the -- where the caribou 15 travel, you know, in the spring and in the winter where 16 they travel and all that, they mark all that. If you 17 look at it real good what the Elders have told us in the 18 past. 19 We -- they have put all that on a map and 20 then that's what we're looking at right now. It's 21 starting to get better now that we place on a map. 22 We have met with the government and then 23 the land is important to us so it seems like they're just 24 walking over us. So the land is important to us so where 25 there's caribou there it's important to us that we
1271 protect that land. 2 So where the green part is, that's where 3 we are protecting those areas. In the springtime and in 4 the wintertime of next year we'll be -- we'll be working 5 on that again. In that area there we will be -- there is 6 roads there. But they -- you know, they're not listening 7 to us, like, if they're making those roads over there. 8 But if you -- where the caribous are 9 travelling and maybe it'll look different so let's work 10 on this -- on it again, they said. So -- so the land you 11 are looking at that's what -- that's how much -- how much 12 land that they have chosen for a particular area. 13 What Stanley has been talking -- a 14 protected area strategy that's what Stan was talking 15 about. Interim measures. It's going to be -- it's going 16 to be only protected for five (5) years but after -- 17 after that is done what is going to happen to it? 18 It seems we've been talking on it for 19 three (3) years and -- for that protected area strategy, 20 they could bag us up and collect all our information and 21 -- and since 1940, at that time they opened up that gas, 22 where -- where we have used our land and all that. Where 23 it's written in black that's where for -- for our future 24 of our children and that, we want to protect those areas. 25 How we use our land and how that area where we use our
1281 land. 2 This is the most important part for us. 3 So that is how much land we want to have protected. This 4 is what we're looking at in Kakisa. In Fort Providence 5 too they're looking at it and West Point and Hay River 6 too. We have to give them -- or we have to tell them how 7 much land we -- we're going to be meeting with them on 8 that. 9 So that's how much land we're going to be 10 asking to be protected. That's what we have said. What 11 is written down up there our boundary, that -- that's 12 what I'm showing you. Andrew Peter, that is -- and Peter 13 Edwards that are working with us they -- they help us 14 make that map. 15 It is not us that we -- our Elders in the 16 past who have said that before the pipeline goes ahead 17 how we use the land and how we -- if we're going to open 18 up that land to exploration we have to -- we have to 19 protect the land for what the Elders have worked on for a 20 long time. 21 If we're going to open up that land again, 22 this is the way we have to do it and what Roy has said is 23 very true. If we're going to open up that land to -- for 24 forestry and for oil and gas we have to -- the community 25 has to be involved in that decision.
1291 Where we go fishing and where all the 2 trails are, where there's good fishing spots and where -- 3 that's -- that is why I'm sitting here. Even though we - 4 - we seem to be just talking about money, that's all we 5 seem to be thinking about today. 6 But -- but if we talk about the land where 7 our Elders used to see is that you have to talk it from 8 your heart. And from now since we -- from those people 9 that -- we have to protect it from the use of the future. 10 I'm thankful that I'm still alive, that 11 we're protecting all those words that the Elders have 12 told us. We want to see that, how we're going to go in 13 the future after this meeting. We will -- we'd like to 14 thank Peter and Dene Nation and George and all those -- 15 all those people that have give us those words. 16 Pipeline that's going through it and oil 17 and gas and it didn't seem to sound right but that's what 18 I wanted to tell you about, what is -- we're protecting 19 our land for the future, for our kids and we have to 20 protect the land because we are Dene people that were 21 living on this land 22 I would like to thank all those people 23 that help us in this land use planning for our community. 24 25 Tomorrow -- tomorrow and Thursday too
1301 we're going to be talking about it so whatever we think 2 about that's all I want to say for our community. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thanks, 4 Chief Lloyd Chicot, Ka'a'gee Tu. 5 Our next presenter is Chief Dennis Deneron 6 from Sambaa K'e Dene Band. Dennis...? 7 8 (THROUGH INTERPRETER INTO ENGLISH) 9 10 CHIEF DENNIS DENERON: I'm thankful to be 11 here at this meeting. When -- I was going to quit from 12 being a chief but then -- but then -- but they wanted me 13 to sit again as a chief so I'll be another three (3) more 14 years to sit here. 15 If we work for the people for this long 16 they have the respect for you and I'm thankful for that. 17 Whatever the Elders say I have to follow so I would like 18 to include what -- what we have done on our land I want 19 to tell you a little bit about. 20 When -- land withdrawals that what we 21 worked on -- if we look at it real good that's how big we 22 chose for our land. What our Elders we met with and 23 that's what they -- they chose how much land there is. 24 If we're going to protect our land if we - 25 - where we -- we have used our land we -- where we use
1311 wood, we use animals we use -- we use -- we use moccasins 2 and we use other jackets and that so, we have to be 3 thankful -- we have to protect the land because of that. 4 If we look at that land there, there's a 5 lot of stories on that land too. There is a lot of 6 stories on that land that -- where the rivers, streams 7 and everything goes. If we don't -- don't get close to 8 that land and where the giant people there, made it that 9 far and all that -- that water too and where all those 10 fish are and where the streams are and all that. 11 We have to protect all that and it's just 12 been two (2) years now that we -- where -- where there's 13 no beavers. Only now we see one (1) beaver that came 14 out. There's one person that went to his traps and then 15 he's -- there's -- we don't know all those beaver went 16 to. We have to work on it to protect our land. 17 In the wintertime too, in BC area -- we 18 went to work in BC so they -- they wanted go trapping and 19 that so they want to work so -- so they want to -- 20 there's some people that still go trapping and that. But 21 there is 1973 about around that time we were -- were some 22 people marked their trails and where they went on the 23 land and all that. 24 We went to -- went to -- we travelled to 25 Fort Liard, to Fort Simpson where all those trails have
1321 been marked on that map. That's what we have put on the 2 map and all our trails that we travel, 1973 what we have 3 worked on. 4 Now it has been about eight (8) or nine 5 (9) years that we work on it and land withdrawals that we 6 protected our land. The Dehcho First Nation they pick up 7 some -- they want to protect that land so they -- why was 8 all the land thing chosen on the land here was because 9 that it was to be protected around that area where it's 10 all around there with regards to protecting the wood, the 11 land as well as the animals and we need to do that. 12 So that's the reason why we put that line 13 around there to be protected for us, for our community. 14 Many times people said that they want to be protected so 15 that's what we did and we follow what our Elders are 16 telling us. 17 And for me, like, it's been about since I 18 was 18 year old I've been a chief and I know I'm still 19 sitting as a chief and working with my councillors. But 20 when we look at these things like this that are named in 21 Slavey, we did all that to put traditional names onto all 22 of the map. Aand that's what we did there with regards 23 to the Trout Lake and a lot of them are different names 24 on there. 25 But where the names are, we have names
1331 like in Slavey and those mean the Beaver Dam, Beaver 2 Lodge. And not too long from there are a lot of little 3 lakes that is there and has many stories behind it, you 4 know. And these are the things that I'm sharing with you 5 so that I'll tell you these -- they have -- each have a 6 special story and that we're putting them on -- on a 7 paper and on the map. 8 We also share a lot of our culture, our -- 9 our -- our culture living such as fish and all that we 10 put stories on that and there are stories about things 11 that protect us too. 12 Within the Paradise River there's also 13 there that there is a underground thing that many years 14 ago they said that within the Yukon they had a great big 15 volcano that some of that is effect of it that shows 16 there and there's even stories with regards to that and 17 it's still there; the site of it. 18 And they say that there's -- there's many 19 ten thousand (10,000) years ago, I guess, when they had 20 big animals that live around there they said that they 21 hear it and their voices are still there even though 22 maybe they've not roamed the area. But you can hear them 23 and these are the things that are protected. 24 And you can hear these things and you can 25 hear all these big animals, you know. And it's a
1341 traditional -- traditional story that -- that it protects 2 us from other people, that's why it's there. 3 But we don't -- we don't bother and they 4 don't bother but then we just -- we just live and the 5 elders stories that it protects us and that's what it 6 does. If you see it probably we say that we do not set 7 traps around there but now we set traps on the other side 8 of it. 9 But we have a lot of trap lines, a lot of 10 places where we have fish like gravesites and all these 11 things that are there we put them all down on the map. 12 And because there's a lot of stories behind all what we 13 see, not only just the lines it's the -- it's the stories 14 behind it. 15 We put them all there and if not then they 16 give us a story and then we keep it for next generation. 17 That's what we've been doing in Acho -- Acho when we do 18 these things like stories. And with regards to the 19 Mackenzie Gas, many times, not too long ago, that they 20 said that they want to push another pipeline through. 21 And we worked on that thing too and 22 there's a lot of things involved there with regards to 23 the water. We don't want it to go near our lake, that's 24 the reason why we asked them, we don't want -- we don't 25 want to see that line go through our land and we're
1351 concerned about it because of the little lakes that are 2 there and if it goes there it runs into a bigger lake. 3 And these are the rivers that is going to 4 go by and we also talk about those things where the 5 pipeline's going to go through. And many times we've 6 addressed these concerns. 7 And even where the mountains are and we 8 have these -- where there is like it fault in the land 9 area we talk about that. We talk about our land, our 10 water, we don't want it near it because it might affect 11 our livelihood. And since 1992 we've been talking about 12 this and so if it's closer to a bigger river and wherever 13 that lake is, we don't want that pipeline near it or 14 anything near it. 15 We need it better so we can protect it, so 16 we don't -- we want it to be protected so that we respect 17 our land. That's the reason why we keep it for the 18 future of our children's children. That's what we're 19 doing right now. We're working on that. 20 But whatever is going to go on like with 21 regards to things that we're going to do we're not only 22 thinking about only the money right now, we're thinking 23 about our land, our culture, our value, our traditional 24 life. 25 And so that's what we're doing right now.
1361 And that's more important to us than what we see that's 2 going to be taken from our lands. 3 And so with Kakisa and us we are working 4 together and Lloyd and I we always talk about it. We 5 talk to each other with regard to the issues that we see. 6 And so we talked with each other and we share with each 7 other how -- whatever that land, how big it is on the -- 8 in that Trout Lake we -- we reserve a lot of things 9 that's been around there. 10 We keep those and that's what was put on 11 our land. Those are the histories of people that have 12 lived there and that have travelled those other areas, 13 those other routes. Even where that beaver water we said 14 there is a story behind that. 15 And these stories are very protected and 16 we still keep them and we use those and we use that to 17 protect us. So it's not only this but we do a lot of 18 other things that we're working on. And we're trying to 19 make it work hard on there. 20 Some of our elders, while they're still 21 alive with us, we need to put all this information 22 together and put them on our maps so that we can use it 23 in the future. 24 Like Edward is our elder, I'm glad that 25 he's here. And he tells us things and he tells us where
1371 there used to be a dam, but now that -- by beaver and 2 that all this stuff was over certain places and how 3 people have lived, how people survive all this area. 4 It's all in there. The whole thing is 5 included in there. So we don't want nothing to happen to 6 this land and we don't want our land to be torn apart, 7 especially with regards to just for money. 8 We just -- they've got to watch wherever 9 they have graveyard, wherever they have grave site. All 10 these need to be protected and we've got to look at the 11 view of the land and then you've got to respect it. 12 I think that's the most important thing 13 here because it's more important for us. Right now, 14 we're just going to leave it that way and we don't want 15 something to spoil. If that's spoiled then what are we 16 going to have for the future. 17 Us too, we have paper like this. We talk 18 on these papers and it will come out. But we're still 19 sitting around with each other and still talking about 20 it, addressing the issues. 21 So what we have done is that we just 22 shared with you what we did. And what, over and above 23 this, meeting here we still have our own work on our 24 lands. Especially with regards to our traditional trails 25 and with regard to the land use mapping in 1990, that one
1381 too we're still looking at that one and BCFN data too, 2 we're also putting all that. 3 And we're putting the whole thing 4 together. And so that's just some of the stories, 5 there's lots of it, you know, this is just a part of it. 6 So I just thought I'd just share that with you and there 7 is a lot of concerns that are addressed with regards to 8 what we see right now and we're still going to be talking 9 on it. 10 So I'll just say thank you. Thank you 11 very much. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thanks 13 there, Chief Dennis Deneron. Good presentation. We can 14 move on. 15 We'd like to call up Nahanni Butte Dene 16 Band Chief Eric Betsaka. Eric...? 17 18 (BRIEF PAUSE) 19 20 CHIEF ERIC BETSAKA: I guess I haven't 21 come prepared to do an in depth presentation like the -- 22 the previous two (2) chiefs. I guess you look at the 23 draft land use plan you know, we're conserving a fair 24 amount of land. 25 The South Nahanni Watershed. The reason
1391 behind that, we're quite conscious of the water system 2 within the -- the South Nahanni Watershed that flows 3 right by our community. 4 The South Nahanni Watershed has, well, 5 provided, you know, provided -- provided us, you know, 6 basically from generation to generation to, you know, 7 from members from, you know, Fort Simpson, I think 8 Wrigley, I take it Fort Liard and a number of 9 communities, anyway. We've used the land traditionally. 10 And, you know, we've -- we've had a hard 11 time the last couple of years just with regard to, you 12 know, a specific mine, Canadian Zinc. You know, we're 13 very conscious of the environment. And it seems, you 14 know, the -- they've got some clause that's grandfathered 15 and, you know, we -- an environmental assessment is not 16 required for them to develop. 17 You know, being a directly impacted 18 community by development of this mine, it kind of 19 frustrates me because I've got elders and we've got, you 20 know, youth that we -- we have to think about. 21 The elders are saying, you know, protect 22 it. But then there's some clause that says you don't 23 need an environmental assessment. Well, you know, we -- 24 I've been here just over a year representing my community 25 and I've had a great opportunity, or most of us did, to
1401 meet Dr. David Suzuki at the Kakisa assembly, where he -- 2 he told us that mining is the worst thing you could do to 3 the environment. 4 So I've -- you know, in the last year I've 5 had to -- to learn a lot. And coming to these 6 gatherings, you know, I -- I take a little bit from each 7 leader and their comments and information. 8 And it's great and I thank all you guys 9 for supporting us with regard to the, you know, the -- 10 the land use plan, the draft land use plan with regard to 11 the -- the amount of land we'd like to conserve. 12 With regards to the -- the other land, 13 Zones 26 and 20, you know, it's -- we're not conserving 14 everything. There's room for development, but under, you 15 know, specific conditions. And I think we've -- we've 16 got a good thing there in terms of the land use plan. 17 And just on behalf of our community, I'd 18 like to thank the leadership for their support in getting 19 what we're -- we're trying to accomplish, I guess, is to 20 -- to conserve the -- the water that -- that comes by our 21 -- our community with the least amount of impact. 22 Massi. 23 24 (BRIEF PAUSE) 25
1411 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, Eric. Okay, if 2 we can move on. 3 Our next presenter is Liidli Kue First 4 Nation, Chief Keyna Norwegian. 5 CHIEF KEYNA NORWEGIAN: Massi. I'd like 6 to thank all the people that took the time out from their 7 busy lifestyles to come here, and I'd like to thank the 8 host Chief for allowing us on his traditional lands, 9 massi. 10 There's a -- a few topics I want to touch 11 on. First of all there's a few zonings that some of my 12 membership weren't even aware that their traditional area 13 wasn't protected. And it's very concerning for -- for 14 those people to find out activities are happening in 15 their traditional area. 16 They've been for years, their grandfather, 17 their great grandfather has been using these areas, and 18 today they still actively use this area for hunting and 19 trapping and have cabins out in this area, so where this 20 area is not protected. 21 With LKFN, ourselves, we did receive a 22 letter back in I believe November -- November 18th or 23 something in that area, asking for a response to this 24 Dehcho land use planning. And LKFN was without a 25 resource person for quite a few months, and we just
1421 recently hired Allan Bouvier as our resource person, and 2 he started on January 19th. 3 And when I gave him the information he 4 only had a week to try to bring some information forward 5 to bring to this meeting. And even then we were told we 6 had to respond by January 27th, which gave him less than 7 a week to try to gather some information. 8 And within that week we found a lot of 9 issues that need -- need to be dealt with, and the main 10 concern is the Poplar River area, where there is today 11 some staking going on there. It's a -- it's a river that 12 should have been protected, unfortunately it's an 13 oversight on -- on somebody's -- where the family weren't 14 even consulted and didn't attend any of the Dehcho land 15 use planning sessions to see that -- for themselves that 16 their area wasn't protected. 17 When somebody is out on the land and 18 currently actively using that area, you wouldn't think 19 you would have any concerns regarding your own 20 traditional lands, but unfortunately this Dehcho land use 21 planning didn't protect those people. 22 In Zone -- there's a few zones that we've 23 just recently brought to our attention, and this is 24 within one (1) week of talking to some of our members, 25 and I imagine if we had more time there'll be more areas
1431 and other issues that'll be brought to our attention. 2 But right now there's a few zones that we -- we wanted to 3 seriously take a look at and these haven't been submitted 4 to Heidi yet, and I'll just talk about a few of them. 5 One (1) is the Zone 19, it's a southern 6 portion -- remain a conserved zone. This is the area I 7 believe Chief Dennis Deneron talked about, where it's an 8 area -- this will allow the Trout Lake community to 9 implement a protected area strategy as an extra potential 10 area to protect from development. So we're talking about 11 the same area as Trout Lake. 12 And also in Zone 22, it's close to -- it's 13 the same area where there's known to be Boreal Woodland 14 Caribou. As you know today -- today's date, with the 15 activities and the mining in the northern part of the 16 Akecho territory where the BHP and Diavik mines are, the 17 elders in the Lutsel K'e and the Dettah communities are 18 having to travel further away to hunt caribou. 19 And it's costing them and they're not 20 being properly compensated to hunt their traditional food 21 that normally they would drive an hour from their 22 community and get -- be able to get caribou. Now it 23 takes them days to find the caribou. 24 So within the Dehcho, we've known caribou 25 to be around, but you know, as a young child I remember
1441 seeing caribou almost on a daily basis, and now driving 2 back and forth from Hay River to Simpson, I think it's 3 been over ten (10) years since I seen a caribou on the 4 highway. 5 So wherever we know that there is caribou 6 out there, RWED has been doing some extensive research on 7 our caribou and we know there's caribou out there. But 8 at the same time we feel that areas are being developed 9 where the caribou is important to our people also, and we 10 have to take care of the caribou. 11 And so Zone 22 is where we know that the 12 caribou are, so we'd like to also talk with Trout Lake 13 about that area and conserving that area to protect the 14 caribou. 15 The other area is in I believe Zone 19, 16 where Poplar River is. I have one (1) of my members that 17 are sitting behind me, Ernest Michelle, whose family has 18 used this area for -- for a long time, as long as he can 19 remember they've been going to this area. 20 There's currently cabins in this area, and 21 right now it's being staked out by mining just recently, 22 and no consultation to their family or the surrounding 23 families that are today using this area. 24 Another zone is Zone 30, it's on the north 25 -- or north side of the Mackenzie River, it is
1451 recommended by the Cornelly (phonetic), the Grastit 2 (phonetic), the Mouse, the Cli, the Tsetso and the 3 Caisson (phonetic) family, who use this area quite 4 frequently, that needs to be more protection for this 5 area. And it is around the corridor of the pipeline 6 area, but they are quite concerned about what is allowed 7 in -- in their traditional areas. 8 These are just a few little areas that was 9 brought to our attention with the short time span that 10 we've had to trying to make recommendations to the -- to 11 the Dehcho Land Use Planning Committee. 12 I know you -- like you say, the note went 13 out November 18th, but myself I've been pretty busy and 14 unfortunately we weren't staying on top of this. But in 15 the short span that we had, we find these are very 16 critical to our people and our members and they're quite 17 worried about this whole Dehcho land use planning, the 18 way it's been driven. 19 I've said it before and I'll continue to 20 say that if you look at the statistic of LKFN membership 21 being involved with this Dehcho land use planning being 22 one (1) of the biggest communities, your percentage of 23 people involved from the LKF is very low. You probably 24 have a .001 or something, involvement in this whole 25 Dehcho land use planning.
1461 And we can't point fingers at anybody and 2 I don't think it's the leadership's fault. We don't have 3 the funding that Dehcho Land Use Committee has to get 4 that information together and make sure that people do 5 come out and get involved with your meetings. 6 With the -- the other area we're kind of 7 concerned about is kind of shocking to us that the 8 municipal boundary around Fort Simpson, I don't know 9 where that came from. And I believe -- I don't think the 10 Mouse family were even aware that their traditional area 11 is now sitting in a municipal boundary. 12 It's quite an extensive area where, you 13 know, at one (1) time the municipal boundary ran from the 14 airport to the end of the island, now it's probably 15 quadrupled that area. And where that area came from is 16 unknown to our membership. 17 We talk about the water control and the 18 importance of the river, and yet you look at the -- the 19 map, and you see that Poplar River just sticks right out 20 there, no protection in that river system at all. It is 21 very disturbing to -- to our membership. 22 I remember the -- I don't remember -- 23 recall when the first time the Dehcho Land Use Planning 24 Committee was established, but as you're aware, you look 25 around the table, leadership changes and I do not believe
1471 I was involved when this first was established. So as -- 2 as the leadership changes, there's different points of 3 view, different ideas and different ways of looking at 4 this whole Dehcho land use planning. 5 And I remember the first time I went to a 6 Dehcho land use planning session and I was just shocked, 7 I said, Oh my God, you can't show that map to anybody, oh 8 my God, what are you doing putting that on the wall, you 9 know, I was freaking out because they were saying, Oh 10 this area is great for minerals, this is great for oil 11 and gas, and I'm saying, You can't do that, you can't 12 show this map to anybody. 13 And then I was told we have every right to 14 show this map to who we want, because it's really not a 15 Dehcho land use plan, it's the Government's, it's the 16 Territorial Government, it's pretty much everybody's land 17 use plan. So it's not the Dehcho land use plan, it 18 belongs to others. 19 And I don't know if people are even aware 20 of that. And I -- I -- now that -- with this recent 21 mineral staking, that's why my fears were there, because 22 I knew that was going to happen. I knew that as soon as 23 you leave a white spot open, somebody's going to grab it, 24 and right now we have no control over who grabbed our 25 land, none.
1481 This man standing behind me, he is quite 2 livid, he wants to know who did it and who allowed it to 3 happen. You know, who gave somebody else permission to 4 touch their traditional land that was carried down from 5 generation to generation, and they have no say over it. 6 You know, like my fears came true. This 7 is exactly what I knew was going to happen. 8 We talk about protecting and controlling 9 our land, this Dehcho land use plan is going to help us 10 protect our land, control our land, we don't have 11 control, we don't have protection, it's -- it's gone, 12 these areas are gone. It's in somebody else's hand, it 13 belongs to somebody else, somebody else has the control 14 over those lands. So this is really not Dehcho land use 15 planning, because it doesn't belong to us, it belongs to 16 everybody. 17 So we wanted to get somebody outside to 18 analyse this whole Dehcho land use plan, unfortunately it 19 couldn't have been done before this meeting took place. 20 But we will continue to do -- go that avenue and get this 21 whole plan revisited by an outsider and somebody that 22 maybe can shed some insight to us, and concerns and try 23 to work together. 24 And I know a lot of time, effort, some of 25 our elders that put their input into it, those are true
1491 value of our Dene and Dene ways and Dene thinking. But 2 at the same time if we don't have the control over it, 3 what good is it to us as Dehcho people, if it's not 4 really, truly ours. 5 We talk about the land and how we -- we're 6 here to protect it as Dene people. Our -- our ancestors, 7 you know, continually told us that we were put here to 8 take care of the land, and I think we've failed them by 9 allowing others to control it, others to take what they 10 rightfully think is theirs. 11 There's mistakes being made, and I hope 12 those mistakes are fixed, and those mistakes come from 13 this Dehcho land use planning. 14 We talk about the land, and I like what 15 Chief Lloyd Chicot said in -- land is worth more than 16 money, it is. Money comes, money goes, but the land, 17 once it's gone we can never, ever get it back. Money 18 cannot buy our land, because it was not there for to 19 sell, it's there for us to protect, to take care of, and 20 we're failing our membership and our people on not being 21 able to control our lands. 22 One (1) trapper told me that he used to 23 trap as far as -- he's still a young man in his thirties, 24 and as far back as he can remember, when he was five (5) 25 years old he'd go out on the land with his parents and
1501 they'd trap beaver in a certain area. 2 And once they built that Enbridge 3 Pipeline, the beaver don't cross that pipeline to go to 4 the river. And beaver and animals are more easily -- 5 they -- their sounding or their hearing is a lot stronger 6 than humans where either the vibration of the pipeline 7 stops them from coming towards where they used to be able 8 to catch a lot of beaver. And they can't catch a beaver 9 there, they have to go further up the -- the land, past 10 the pipeline where the beaver stopped coming to -- 11 towards the pipeline. 12 So those activities and those signs that 13 our animals are telling us, it's just a sign for the 14 future of our people. What is happening to our animals, 15 are we really taking care of our animals, where are our 16 caribou, where are our moose, where are our rabbits, we 17 don't see those. 18 And I remember as far back as I can, I 19 spent a lot of time on the land when I was young, I 20 missed a lot of school just being on the land because I 21 wanted to be on the land in the spring and the fall. 22 Those are the times I used to spend out with my family on 23 the land, and everyday we seen something, everyday we 24 seen a beaver, rabbit, moose, caribou, we always seen it. 25 But today my daughter travels with me
1511 lots, I don't know when's the last time I pointed out one 2 (1) of those animals to her, you know, and it's -- it's 3 sad, it's because we're failing our people in not 4 protecting our land and our animals. 5 And I don't see how this Dehcho land use, 6 we're saying it's going to help us and protect us, I 7 don't see that happening. It failed us already, and I 8 can only continue to see it failing us, because there is 9 no protection for us. 10 If people are allowed to stake wherever 11 there's a white area with no consultation with our 12 membership, we have a -- a quite a bit -- I'm sure we 13 have more issues on regarding the zoning in certain 14 areas, especially in LKFN traditional area, but with the 15 short time frame that we've had to -- to make responses, 16 we weren't able to do it. 17 I'd like to request that a -- in the -- in 18 the near future that the Dehcho land use planning come 19 back to Simpson, and maybe this time I will -- I will 20 personally make an effort to get my people that need to 21 be at this meeting, there. In the past I didn't think it 22 was my job to do it. I wasn't the one being funded to do 23 it. A certain committee that got the funding to put this 24 together, I felt that they were the ones who were 25 responsible to get the people to the meeting not myself.
1521 But in the future I would like to -- them 2 to come back to my community and I will make an effort 3 that the people that need to be there are there. With 4 that, massi. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks, there Chief 6 Keyna Norwegian. 7 If we can, we'd like to move on to the 8 Fort Simpson Metis. I believe it's Marie Lafferty. 9 Marie...? 10 And then followed by that our last 11 presenter would be Pehdzeh Ki. Is the Fort Providence 12 delegation here? Are they -- have they arrived, Rick, do 13 you know? No. Okay. 14 Okay, Marie Lafferty...? 15 MS. MARIE LAFFERTY: Good afternoon, 16 delegates, negotiators, et cetera. It's only been a few 17 months since we've worked on our TK study. We've -- 18 we've completed it just very recently but we don't have - 19 - I don't think we have our maps. We didn't -- don't 20 have the maps done eh? Okay, the maps are done but 21 they're not on the GIS system yet. 22 We've -- we're getting one. Anyway, I 23 guess the reason we took so long in getting the TK study, 24 when I first came president Randy had been in there 25 before and he had begun working on it with LKFN, but when
1531 I came on board I didn't -- I didn't understand how 2 important it was. 3 So I just hadn't worked on it. So we 4 eventually just got to it, you know, last year. And then 5 we got some funding for it. Peter Redvers was the one we 6 contracted and he did a lot of good work for us in very 7 short time and he's not here today though. 8 So we've got the video and we've got our 9 completed traditional study too. So, another thing, I 10 just wanted to mention few things that are -- that are 11 in the -- in the revised booklet here. 12 It's just -- just wording. For one thing, 13 in "definitions" there's no definition for 14 "consultation". And another is for traditional and 15 cultural knowledge, we could use -- possibly use the DFN 16 policy instead of everybody creating their own, just all 17 use under the same umbrella instead of all having to 18 create more work for ourselves, as there is so much to do 19 as it is now. 20 And some of us, we don't have many people 21 working for us and so it's just a lot of work with no -- 22 not enough funding and not enough people working for us. 23 Also, the -- the monitors, there's monitoring and these - 24 - this monitoring system, who do they report to? Do they 25 report to the First Nation or do they report to DFN and
1541 that's on page 17 "use of guides and monitors". 2 So that's just a question there. And 3 under -- on that same page under the last paragraph "use 4 of traditional materials" there's just a word there: 5 "Individuals wishing to harvest 6 traditional materials should contact 7 the local First Nations for approval 8 and guidance." 9 Possibly changing the "should" to "must". 10 "Individuals wishing to harvest 11 traditional materials must contact the 12 local First Nations for approval and 13 guidance." 14 It's just a stronger word. 15 I had another part marked, and I don't 16 know where it is. And, yeah, I think that was -- was all 17 on the -- on those certain words, just -- just changing 18 -- changing for DFN policy, consultation, DFN policy, and 19 that's... 20 We had, to my surprise, I found out that 21 the Metis have had a large traditional area, like I just 22 couldn't believe the -- the places they travelled in -- 23 when they were -- like my dad and uncles, when they were 24 young, they -- my uncle -- late uncle Phillip, Jonas's 25 dad, had travelled even into the Yukon, you know, to -- I
1551 don't know if he went fishing up there or hunting, but 2 they used a large, large area and -- all through the 3 Nahanni, up the -- toward the Poplar area, up -- what's 4 the place where Eric and them... 5 6 (BRIEF PAUSE) 7 8 MS. MARIE LAFFERTY: Up toward Rabbit 9 Skin, up toward -- up on the -- the hills there, there 10 was a big fishing lake, they used to go for fish there. 11 They fished in Mills Lake, they travelled the Mackenzie 12 from one (1) end to the -- the other, they did mail runs 13 by dogteam in the winter time, and so they -- they 14 travelled the whole territory, you know, from one (1) end 15 to the other. So they had a tremendous knowledge and 16 skill of the land, and I'm kind of ashamed to say that I 17 don't have very many of those skills. 18 So, they were very knowledgeable men of 19 the land. They worked together with -- with the Dene, 20 they lived together with the Dene when they were on the 21 land, they hunted together, they ate together, they -- 22 you know, they -- they got along well with the -- with 23 all the people, and they lived on the land, they had 24 cabins, they -- some -- they raised their families until 25 they were a certain age and then they moved into town to
1561 get jobs and you know, get -- work on the river, the 2 river boats and stuff. So they -- they had a -- they had 3 a huge area. 4 We've got the video, we don't have it with 5 us, but it -- it would be nice to, you know, to take a 6 look at it one (1) of these days, I'm thinking of talking 7 to Keyna and maybe we can have a meeting at the -- in 8 town there, and we can just show it, and you know, go 9 over it. It would be -- be nice to go over it with -- 10 with everyone. 11 Anyway, I'm going to turn it over to 12 Kelly, he's got a few words to say. He's our resource 13 person. Thank you. 14 MR. KELLY PENNYCOOK: Yeah, I got 15 together with the Board of Directors of the Fort Simpson 16 Metis, and we went over the land use plan and they had a 17 few concerns, a couple other ones that President Maria 18 Lafferty mentioned. 19 One (1) was the revegetation, you guys got 20 to use the seeds mixture natural to the Northern Boreal 21 Forest. They're a bit worried that that's too general. 22 Boreal Forest, basically you can end up with one large 23 Jack Pine Forest, instead of maybe take example, the -- 24 the tar sands area, where they're removing some of the 25 swamps and bogs, there's a lot of valuable and rare
1571 plants in there. 2 And their plan for recommend -- 3 reclamation -- reclamation for the area, they just 4 planted a Jack Pine forest. And that was unsuitable. 5 They'd like to have it changed to maybe a seed mixtures 6 of indigenous to the site's habitat. Because they're 7 worried about the -- basically the micro-ecological 8 systems in that particular spot. 9 Another concern or clarity they wanted was 10 on the regulatory authorities. The Dehcho Resource 11 Management Authority is the regulatory authority. 12 I was under the impression the Dehcho 13 Resource Management Authority would supervise the Dehcho 14 Land and Water Panel and perhaps the Dehcho Land Use 15 Planning Committee and maybe monitoring committees so 16 they don't go independent. 17 Another one that they mentioned was the 18 pipeline. You got it mentioned as a transportation 19 corridor for hydrocarbons only. I know there's a couple 20 of Elders in the Meander River area that actually see the 21 pipeline transporting water as well in the near future. 22 It might be something that they wanted to consider. 23 And the last thing I believe they 24 mentioned was under the forestry there's no forest 25 management plan or any hint to forming a committee or DFN
1581 getting together with the government to form a forest 2 management plan for the Dehcho. 3 Oh, and another one was the mining 4 infrastructure for conformity requirement number 9. Type 5 B Land Use Permits and water licenses. As most people 6 know, the Type B Land Use Permit requires a sump so 7 you're almost guaranteed a sump any time a Type B license 8 is issued and this would be impractical in some 9 situations. 10 I know a lot of these recommendations when 11 they're drawn up they required the permafrost to contain 12 the sumpage. The permafrost, as we all know, is receding 13 drastically and it's an insufficient means, nowadays, to 14 hold the sump. 15 And that's it. Thank you. 16 MS. MARIE LAFFERTY: Mashi cho. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for the 18 presentation. 19 If we can move on our final presenter is 20 Pehdzeh Ki First Nation, Gabe Hardisty -- Chief Gabe 21 Hardisty. 22 23 (THROUGH TRANSLATOR INTO ENGLISH) 24 25
1591 CHIEF GABE HARDISTY: I'd like to say 2 thank you very much. Thank you. The paper that we're 3 discussing here a lot of people have worked on this. A 4 lot of people have worked on this. How we have to work 5 on this for the future, we have to think about that. 6 We have haven't signed anything on this so 7 we have to look at it very good and what we're going to 8 work on it we -- they pick up all the stories from the 9 Elders and where they went trapping, where they went 10 hunting and all that. 11 They -- they have to -- we have to check 12 all that -- all that information since 1985 -- 1985 all 13 of those people that have work -- they have worked really 14 hard on that land -- on that map -- mapping of that land. 15 Now if we're going -- we have made -- we 16 have the same -- we have gathered the same information 17 and made a map like that, how we're going to -- how we're 18 going to -- there's a lot of names on that land where we 19 went hunting, where we went camping. We even named the 20 water, even the streams we have names for it. Even -- 21 even the barges where the river flows, as we think about 22 those things too. 23 There's -- there's a lot of streams in 24 that -- in that river where they're closer, our 25 committee, so we have to look on that where all the
1601 barges are going to be passing. So we have to gather all 2 that information. 3 So what we are -- what we are saying is 4 that the -- who it sounds good for them in the -- the 5 community, where it sounds good that land use planning 6 that they have worked on, the Government of Canada, if it 7 sounds -- if it sounds good for them, but if we were 8 going to be living by that way that -- that then, we have 9 to follow what is written on -- we -- we cannot -- it's 10 got to be our information, not the government people's 11 information that we have to live by. 12 How -- how our elders used to live, how 13 they used to live in the bush and how there used to be 14 relatives and all that -- and all that information's got 15 to be gathered and it's got to be put on the maps. 16 If we're going to -- if we're going to 17 work on this, there is no money for it. And if there's 18 no money, it's hard. Those people there -- George 19 Rasmussen and Sam and those people that are negotiating 20 for us, they should ask for money for us for -- it would 21 be good if they asked for money for this type of thing. 22 We're not trapping anymore, so we -- we 23 look for small jobs and that's -- that's how we buy 24 groceries and how we -- we live. 25 So how are we going to protect all this
1611 then and if we're going to talk -- we -- if we -- it's 2 very important but if we're going to do it for the 3 generation, we have to -- and we don't want them to sit 4 here and talk about this again, then we have to -- we 5 have to fix it for the youth of the future. 6 Our Elders have done all this for us, so 7 we have to keep the land for ourselves too. 8 If we -- if we didn't -- if they didn't 9 keep that land, or our Elders didn't keep that land for 10 us, top of our land for us and whether there are rivers 11 flowing and how the grass is growing, if that all changes 12 and the river goes backwards and all that, that's what 13 they've said. Now it seems like they broke all their 14 promises after they said all that. So we have to watch 15 all those things. 16 So if we -- we work on it ourself and we 17 work on this ourself and fix this ourself, Dehcho First 18 Nation are backing us up on -- on this, they're helping 19 us. They are there to help us. 20 How the communities want to work and how 21 they -- how they want -- they are there to help us if we 22 -- the communities, if they want to -- if they -- if we 23 look at this document real good and then it'd be good. 24 Our Elders have been working on this for a 25 long time. When it comes -- when it comes to the spring
1621 time they all -- they all meet in the community, they 2 have hand games, they have drum dance, they -- they all 3 sit beside each other and they drink tea and they're 4 happy that they -- that winter was good and if we -- in 5 the winter time we'll go back on the land and then we'll 6 -- and then we're going to go back to the land and work 7 there again. 8 If we're going to go back to the Fish Lake 9 and that we'd -- they tell each other that we're going 10 back. With this, how big that land is we're -- we have 11 been put on this land by the Creator. It is not 12 different people that put us here. 13 We have been put here by the Creator to 14 live here and to protect it. Even -- even those who were 15 poor and that our Elders they never said they were poor. 16 They were thankful -- they were thankful and they shook 17 hands. 18 That's why we're living on this -- on the 19 land. Where we're saying that we're going to sell this 20 land. I don't want to hear this. Paul Wright, when they 21 used to live among us, Paul Wright, five (5) years ago he 22 said, this is the way it's going to be. It's going to -- 23 somebody's going to -- somebody's going to ruin you by 24 money. That's what he -- that's what he told us. 25 We have to work real good for our land.
1631 We have to protect our land. Now, they're talking about 2 a pipeline and now they're throwing money at us and then 3 it seems like we've lost our way out there now talking 4 about pipeline and all that. 5 We're not living by the pipeline. You 6 can't live by your pipeline. It is our land that we will 7 be living with. If the land is ruined and that who is 8 going to fix it for us. Them they can fix it for us. 9 Now, even the weather is changing -- the climate changes 10 and that. Who did all this? It's them that did that. 11 Them, they're doing everything. It's 12 starting to get global warming now that it's not us we 13 did that. So if I look at it, that paper there, all 14 those people that -- all those people that are sitting 15 after me, I can't say yes to this paper. 16 We have to look at it really good and meet 17 with my -- all the community people in my community have 18 to look at it before how we are going to see on our land. 19 We have to talk about it. 20 There are still elders still with us. 21 Now, we're losing all our elders, you know. Their 22 stories we have to follow what the elders say. Now, all 23 their stories that they told us and all the things that 24 they remind us before everything changes. We have to do 25 this.
1641 Different people come here and this -- 2 this is the way we want to operate on your land. It 3 sounds different for us. It is us that we're landing we 4 were born here on this lands. We have to speak up on it, 5 even me. 6 When I was twenty-six (26) years old I was 7 -- I used to go in the bush. Used to go with my brother, 8 uncle, I used to go with them. I used to go trapping. 9 Even my -- even my father -- father used to be janitor in 10 the school. He -- there was no time for him so -- so I 11 went trapping by myself. I went hunting. That's what I 12 did. 13 That's how I was brought up. That's when 14 I -- where you go fishing, where -- where the caribou 15 are. Where the moose are. What -- what the Elders told 16 us that's what we had to go. We know the land because we 17 go out on the land. 18 Since 1972 it has been a long time since 19 then. Before we first started, and our elders who sit 20 here with us, I guess they give us a very strong story. 21 Now -- now it's our turn, where are we 22 going now. Our children are -- our children -- this is 23 for their future that we -- that's what we're talking 24 about. We want it to be good for them. 25 If we work really good on this paper and
1651 we -- if we think about it really good and we work hard 2 on it, and it's going to change now. And now we have to 3 still work on this even to make it really good. That's 4 what we're working on this for. 5 If we -- if we play around with it, if you 6 overcome it you have to -- you have to work on it really 7 hard to improve on it. 8 This -- this is a very big job that's 9 ahead of me. There's councillors that -- they're going 10 to be badgering us, so that's -- that's what I want to 11 tell you. Massi. Thank you. 12 13 (BRIEF PAUSE) 14 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Thanks there, 16 Gabe. 17 Thanks to Gabe, his presentation. This 18 pretty well brings us to the end of our agenda. What 19 we'd like to do is try to wind this down. 20 Just a couple of quick announcements, I 21 think we're having the feast here tonight and a drum 22 dance, I think. Yes, probably right after the feast, so 23 I think people want to come back here probably about six 24 o'clock is what I'm told, come back here at six o'clock, 25 and we'll have a feast and a drum dance to follow.
1661 Just a couple of quick announcements 2 again. We had introduced -- congratulated new Chief Gabe 3 Hardisty, who's been elected. We also have two (2) new 4 chiefs that are also at the table here, Chief Stanley 5 Sanguez from Jean Marie River, who got elected there just 6 a couple of months ago. 7 And also an old warrior that has been 8 involved in this for a long time, Chief Harry Deneron 9 Acho Dene Kue. Is there any new -- and there's of 10 course, Dennis, is a Chief, but he's been trying to quit 11 being Chief for the longest time, so I don't know whether 12 we should congratulate him. If he steps down, maybe we 13 should congratulate him then, eh? 14 Okay. So that pretty well brings us to 15 the end. I'd ask Elsie Marcellais to do our closing 16 prayer for us. Elsie...? 17 18 (CLOSING PRAYER) 19 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Massi. Okay, if we can 21 we'll adjourn. Grab your binders, grab your information, 22 and we'll come back here at six o'clock for a feast and 23 followed by a drum dance. 24 We want to all be back here at six o'clock 25 -- nine o'clock tomorrow morning, nine o'clock tomorrow
1671 morning here at the -- the hall, when we'll continue with 2 our presentation. 3 4 --- Upon adjourning at 4:55 p.m. 5 6 7 8 Certified Correct 9 10 11 12 13 _________________________ 14 Wendy Warnock, Ms. 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25